Berger Bullets

[ImBillT]

The ballistic tip was indeed changed from the original design that came out many years ago. I happen to have some that have been sitting on the shelf since the 1980s. They were explosive when traveling fast. The new design is much tougher and is a very good bullet.View attachment 317234View attachment 317235

I liked the old version better.

 

[ImBillT]

That is some jacket for a varmint bullet. Maybe they haven't always been that way? But the below bullet construction is pretty damn stout.

View attachment 317175

The Ballistic Tip Varmint had the old construction. The Ballistic Tip Hunting has the construction in your picture. Personally I preferred the old construction for all Ballistic Tips.

 

[ImBillT]

I started out using ballistic tips 20 years ago on deer, and they deer did indeed drop like a ton of bricks hit them. But after I hit one, unknowingly in the leg bone and it crippled the deer and I tracked him for 1/2 a mile and he stopped bleeding and I lost him, I swore off using ballistic tips. They are varmint bullets. That's it. I would never us them (or bergers) on a big animal like an elk. I think you are setting yourself up for problems. To the hunters that use them, and had success, great. But please acknowledge their big weaknesses. That was Randy Selig's main point in his video. I only hunt with TSX's, TTSX's or Accubonds, with Accubond's being my go to favorite.

The Bergers are superior to the old Ballistic Tips when hitting shallow bone. The new Ballistic Tip hunting is also, but it’s quite tough. The old Ballistic Tips definitely resulted in reports of near surface blowups and lack of penetration when, particularly when lighter bullets were paired with high impact velocities.

I’ve run Bergers through leg bones and shoulder blades with only a pencil sized hole going through. The Bergers usually don’t open until they’re in the chest, and then go to pieces. I shot a bull right on the knuckle with a 6.5mm 140gr Elite Hunter and there was literally no knuckle remaining. Just a softball sized hole where it had been. I didn’t open the chest to see how far into the lungs the bullet and bone fragments went, but it was far enough.

Below is the exit side shoulder of a cow elk shot with a 190VLD-H at 575yds and muzzle velocity of 2975fps. She dropped before I came out of recoil and I was momentarily concerned that I had missed.

 

[ImBillT]

I think it usually gets asked by Berger shooters because a lot of people that have “problems” don’t understand how bergers kill. Most want pretty little expanded bullets and exits and when they don’t see that with a Berger they claim failure. Bergers aren’t going to do that regularly. Would be like a person claiming failure when a hammer bullet sheds its petals and doesn’t look like a Barnes. They don’t understand how the bullet is suppose to perform.

Yeah, that’s definitely why I asked. I wanted to know if the animal died almost instantly after the bullet entered the rib cage and then fragmented wildly(what I want to happen) or if the animal was lost or the bullet tumbled or only made a pinhole like an FMJ.

My first Berger kill had two bullets act like FMJ’s, but I had been pointing them on a pointing die for shooting F-Class matches. Berger told me to stop pointing bullets I intended to hunt with, and I’ve been very pleased ever since. I have had one tumble, and initially blamed the impact angle hitting a rib almost parallel to the bullet nose. It’s possible that’s why it tumbled, but I’ve read a few other accounts of tumbling that were also bullets likely to be marginally stable. The one that tumbled for me was not fully stable, and that may have been the cause. I have since switched to only shooting fully stable bullets when hunting.

 

[MTTW]

The old ballistic tip is the only bullet that I have seen fail imo. My brother shot a bull broadside in the lungs at 75 yards and hit a rib going in. 7 mag and the bullet pictured. The bullet exploded on the rib and caused a softball sized entrance wound but didn't reach the second lung.

We followed it way down into a hole and shot it again. They might work ok going slower.
I don't have a problem with soft bullets and have killed quite a few elk with SSTs and lately a few with eld-m.

 

[88man]

I have seen a bunch of bull elk hit low & High and behind the shoulder with the 180 grn berger 7mm from 200yrds out to 800yrds every one was dead in 3 to 5 seconds and didn't go more than a few feet. Some of the shots even passed thru most did not and appeared to blow up. However, end result was the elk was dead in seconds and didn't go anywhere but down. I guess thats what happens when bullets fail? Ill call it exceptional bullet performance. Those same bullets punch holes in skoal cans at 500yrds repeatedly. Its just odd to me that a product so good gets such a bad rap on this forum even from those who never shoot them? I guess old Walt needs to buy some IPAS at BHA pint nite.

 

[ImBillT]

The old ballistic tip is the only bullet that I have seen fail imo. My brother shot a bull broadside in the lungs at 75 yards and hit a rib going in. 7 mag and the bullet pictured. The bullet exploded on the rib and caused a softball sized entrance wound but didn't reach the second lung.

We followed it way down into a hole and shot it again. They might work ok going slower.
I don't have a problem with soft bullets and have killed quite a few elk with SSTs and lately a few with eld-m.

That was the common complaint, and seems like the common scenario that resulted in complaints. Hot rod cartridges and high impact velocities. The Bergers seem to handle that better than the old Ballistic Tip did. I would bet that the same bullet from a 7-08 would have performed much better. I’m not sure if Nosler offered a Ballistic Tip heavy enough for a 7mag back then. While I like the old version better, it was probably best at muzzle velocities of 2800fps and below.

 

[mtmuley]

Sometimes it makes people's head explode if somebody doesn't care for frangible bullets. It's funny. mtmuley

 

[elevatorman]

I watched a buddy shoot a whitetail once with a berger out of a 308. I just remember thinking dang you could put a watermelon in the hole in the side of her.

It's those that made me realize an ELD-X is definitely a "tough enough" bullet. Somewhere between a berger and a solid copper bullet.

 

[Whitetail_kid]

I’ve had great experience with Bergers. At 300+ yards almost always put two holes in them. Close range they usually don’t exit but don’t go far.

 

[bobcat_trapper]

I shot this yring with a berger. A 280 rem with a berger 140 gr VLD. I live in the south. We get several doe tags. I am a big berger fan.

 

[ImBillT]

I shot this yring with a berger. A 280 rem with a berger 140 gr VLD. I live in the south. We get several doe tags. I am a big berger fan.

Wow!! Honestly that might put me off of Bergers if I was getting that all the time!

I got a small exit on the white tail doe and no exit on the hog IIRC with a 190 VLD-H started off at 2975fps. Don’t remember the range on either. The doe was a little long, the hog was fairly close. The exit on the white tail was probably a few of the larger fragments as the insides were wrecked as usual.

Admittedly the two coyotes that I shot on that trip were blown nearly in half. Maybe a yearling only a little bigger than the coyotes would have been torn up by the 190 VLDs.

 

[mtmuley]

I shot this yring with a berger. A 280 rem with a berger 140 gr VLD. I live in the south. We get several doe tags. I am a big berger fan.

Sheesh. mtmuley

 

[bobcat_trapper]

I must have hit it just right. I haven't mess one up after that. I am going to shoot a heavier bullet in my 280AI.

 

[Senior Hunter]

I think it usually gets asked by Berger shooters because a lot of people that have “problems” don’t understand how bergers kill. Most want pretty little expanded bullets and exits and when they don’t see that with a Berger they claim failure. Bergers aren’t going to do that regularly. Would be like a person claiming failure when a hammer bullet sheds its petals and doesn’t look like a Barnes. They don’t understand how the bullet is suppose to perform.

New Member - Sorry, cannot yet make a new post.

Did the Berger Bullet fail?

Hello,

Though some of you might enjoy a recent hunting story. I have 30 years elk hunting experience and have been reloading since 1971.

For the last 20 years, I have been shooting a .300 Weatherby Magnum with 180 gr Nosler Partition bullets. Since I have a nice bull on the wall, I now hunt for the meat and go after cow elk.

For many years, I have been fortunate to hunt an area where I can be selective where I take an elk, so that I don’t have to pack it out etc. Since I’m going for meat, I’m very careful with bullet placement and 95% of the time I will shoot for the neck, with shots ranging from 100 – 500 yards. I have never had an elk take one step; they all drop instantly.

A few weeks ago, I was cow elk hunting with friends, and we were trying to ‘simultaneously’ shoot two cows out of a herd.

The hunt – We were successful in locating a herd of ~75 elk in an open area and closed the distance down to ~500 yards. Two shooters lined up and got ready. At this point, a friend said hey, use my gun with a suppressor and not spook the herd, in the event someone needs to take a second shot (all guns were equipment with suppressors, except for my .300 Loud Weatherby). I said ok, give it here. His gun is a 7 LRM Gunwerks, loaded with 180 grain bullets.

On the countdown, two of us took a shot. My buddy’s elk dropped, and the herd slowly ran away. I was asked by my friends did I think I made a good shot? I said I had a good rest and had no question about the gun. (I had previously shot the 7 LRM Gunwerks at targets out to 700 yards, and it was spot on). As the elk herd moved away, a cow elk stopped and just stood there; it was clear the cow was hit. As we closed the distance to the standing cow for a second shot, she fell over and that was that.

Upon examination, the bullet hit exactly where I was aiming, upper-mid neck area. The bullet entered at a ‘pencil’ diameter and on the other side of the neck, there was an exit opening of ~1/2” in diameter.

I was rather perplexed that the elk did not drop upon bullet impact. So, I did a little ‘research’!

My findings:

• The 7 LRM shell was loaded with Berger 180 grain VLD, (very low drag) bullet. According to Berger, “VLD Hunting bullets are designed to penetrate 2-3″ into the vitals and then begin to expand and create a massive wound cavity up to 15″.
• 
  
• This is the ‘embarrassing’ part! I used someone else’s gun without knowing the specific characteristics of the bullets. My bad!
• 
  
• Did the bullet fail? No! I did not place the bullet according to its design.
• 
  
• If it had been in a wooded area, I would have been able to follow the blood trail.
• 
  
• What would I do differently? Knowing the gun’s capabilities, and my modest shooting abilities, I would have placed the shot at the base of the head or the vitals.

Moral of the story, I never stop learning!

Best

 

[brockel]

New Member - Sorry, cannot yet make a new post.

Did the Berger Bullet fail?

Hello,

Though some of you might enjoy a recent hunting story. I have 30 years elk hunting experience and have been reloading since 1971.

For the last 20 years, I have been shooting a .300 Weatherby Magnum with 180 gr Nosler Partition bullets. Since I have a nice bull on the wall, I now hunt for the meat and go after cow elk.

For many years, I have been fortunate to hunt an area where I can be selective where I take an elk, so that I don’t have to pack it out etc. Since I’m going for meat, I’m very careful with bullet placement and 95% of the time I will shoot for the neck, with shots ranging from 100 – 500 yards. I have never had an elk take one step; they all drop instantly.

A few weeks ago, I was cow elk hunting with friends, and we were trying to ‘simultaneously’ shoot two cows out of a herd.

The hunt – We were successful in locating a herd of ~75 elk in an open area and closed the distance down to ~500 yards. Two shooters lined up and got ready. At this point, a friend said hey, use my gun with a suppressor and not spook the herd, in the event someone needs to take a second shot (all guns were equipment with suppressors, except for my .300 Loud Weatherby). I said ok, give it here. His gun is a 7 LRM Gunwerks, loaded with 180 grain bullets.

On the countdown, two of us took a shot. My buddy’s elk dropped, and the herd slowly ran away. I was asked by my friends did I think I made a good shot? I said I had a good rest and had no question about the gun. (I had previously shot the 7 LRM Gunwerks at targets out to 700 yards, and it was spot on). As the elk herd moved away, a cow elk stopped and just stood there; it was clear the cow was hit. As we closed the distance to the standing cow for a second shot, she fell over and that was that.

Upon examination, the bullet hit exactly where I was aiming, upper-mid neck area. The bullet entered at a ‘pencil’ diameter and on the other side of the neck, there was an exit opening of ~1/2” in diameter.

I was rather perplexed that the elk did not drop upon bullet impact. So, I did a little ‘research’!

My findings:

• The 7 LRM shell was loaded with Berger 180 grain VLD, (very low drag) bullet. According to Berger, “VLD Hunting bullets are designed to penetrate 2-3″ into the vitals and then begin to expand and create a massive wound cavity up to 15″.
• 
  
• This is the ‘embarrassing’ part! I used someone else’s gun without knowing the specific characteristics of the bullets. My bad!
• 
  
• Did the bullet fail? No! I did not place the bullet according to its design.
• 
  
• If it had been in a wooded area, I would have been able to follow the blood trail.
• 
  
• What would I do differently? Knowing the gun’s capabilities, and my modest shooting abilities, I would have placed the shot at the base of the head or the vitals.

Moral of the story, I never stop learning!

Best

If you didn’t severe the spine I’m not shocked she didn’t drop. Neck isn’t the best shot to be taking with any bullet

 

[88man]

A few days ago my cousin visiting with me and hunting in Pa as he is from another state. He uses my 6.5 prc which is loaded with the 156grn berger, he shoots a large bodied buck facing him at about 75yrds in the front chest. He described the shot as upon the shot the buck did nothing but melted to the ground, he emphasized it didn't drop, it just melted down in 1 to 2 seconds. I found that sorta odd description. Then we field dress the buck and when we went to remove the heart it was COMPLETLY severed off and just laying against the sternum!!!!!!!! The bullet was recovered in the hide on the right side hip and was basically the jacketed cup of the bullet with the lead core in the jacket, not a mushroom shape but a flat shape

 

[Doublecluck]

6.5 156 eol, impact velocity 1980, bullet hit about here



Deer went 20 yards.

Behind front shoulder





195 eol, impact velocity 1889, entrance was behind shoulder, slightly quartering away, exit in picture shown through shoulder.



Dropped where it stood


Behind front shoulder

 

[Redman]

July 2020.... Should this be called "Berger damage.....let's see them"? Asking for a friend.

 

[cahunter805]

6.5 156 eol, impact velocity 1980, bullet hit about here

View attachment 352431

Deer went 20 yards.

Behind front shoulder

View attachment 352420



195 eol, impact velocity 1889, entrance was behind shoulder, slightly quartering away, exit in picture shown through shoulder.

View attachment 352422

Dropped where it stood


Behind front shoulder

View attachment 352423

That’s exactly what I’m used to seeing with Berger’s as well. Great shooting. They shoot extremely well in the rifles I use them in and kill very effectively. I will continue to use them when I can.