Bad News for Bozeman Hunters

[belly-deep]

It looks like the wolves have crashed the elk population in the Taylor Fork. The biologist says they are 85% below objective and doesn't make any excuses as to why. Sad thing too. The Gallatin offers probably the best (although tough) OTC trophy bull hunting in MT.

http://billingsgazette.com/news/sta...cle_468faeb8-e06b-11de-a34e-001cc4c002e0.html

 

[Frequently Banned Troll]

Old news to the locals. Still elk there, an the occassional nice bull, but it ain't what it was, and the great elk stomping ground are no longer places elk want to be.. and the sad part of it, like the moose in that area, it's only going to continue to get worse. The "alarming trends" the FWP pointed out in that meeting last week, were however finally fully blamed on the wolves in the area.. all "16" of them.

 

[Lawnboy]

That's the toughest "16" wolves in the country. They've managed to drive thousands of elk from their normal wintering and migration routes. I too feel for whatever moose might be left.

 

[Hem]

At the risk of annoying a few,the hunting started to decline in Taylor Fork when atv's became a status symbol in Bozeman.I used to support wolf reintroduction back in the late eighties and I still believe they have a place in the wild,but not without aggressive control measures.Clearly few people understood what truly would evolve.Up the quota,I'm all for letting the elk take back Taylor Fork.Oh yeah...make it non-motorized as well.

 

[tjones]

hmmm, I remember for years and years the over issue of of cow permits.

watch for HD 250 to follow HD 310.

 

[----]

watch for HD 250 to follow HD 310.

And 270, 261, 240, 204, 203 and 202 to follow that. While 310 and 250 have probably been hit the hardest, the rest of these units are in real trouble too. A lot of them are 20-40% of their objective, which are already way too low. We're definitely in for a rough patch...

 

[thecrittergitter]

Belly deep-- I'm sure being from the fladhead, you are noticing the whitetail population plummet from our beloved canine friends too huh?? I grew up near there and I've never seen so few deer in a hunting season as i have this past year.............Did get to see tons of bones, hides, wolf crap, and wolf tracks though............unfortunately, none passes inside scope range

 

[belly-deep]

At the risk of annoying a few,the hunting started to decline in Taylor Fork when atv's became a status symbol in Bozeman.I used to support wolf reintroduction back in the late eighties and I still believe they have a place in the wild,but not without aggressive control measures.Clearly few people understood what truly would evolve.Up the quota,I'm all for letting the elk take back Taylor Fork.Oh yeah...make it non-motorized as well.

I don't know about that. For the record, I don't own an ATV. But they are everywhere in the Dillon/Lima area and the elk haven't mysteriously dissappeared there the way that they have in the Taylor Fork.

And actually, people did understand what would truely evolve with the wolf issue. They were called hunters. The FWP and the average joe didn't understand it--or atleast they didn't want to admit they did, but you can find plenty of hunters around saying "I told you so back then" today.

 

[T-Panic]

From some friends I have in Idaho they say the same thing is happening. Wolves have ruinned the Elk hunting to low numbers. One friend claims world reknown elk hunter Jim Horn was overheard saying he doubted he would ever hunt Idaho again, because of the low numbers of elk. Here in my state they seem to want all the hunters to reduce our herds. All I know the elk aren't what they were 12 years ago when I moved down to this area from the northen end of the state. All can say for you guys with the massive wolf problem is to keep sending letters to the congressman and judges. I have sent letters saying they should reintroduce wolf hunts for Montana and Idaho. We have to fight the animal right groups anyway legally we can.

 

[1_pointer]

Here in my state they seem to want all the hunters to reduce our herds. All I know the elk aren't what they were 12 years ago when I moved down to this area from the northen end of the state.

Has the change in elk herds been for the better or worse?? UT DWR does like to issue cow tags...

 

[Frequently Banned Troll]

Hem, I agree with you on the ATVs.. shame they were/are allowed in some of that country.

 

[JoseCuervo]

.

And actually, people did understand what would truely evolve with the wolf issue. They were called hunters. The FWP and the average joe didn't understand it--or atleast they didn't want to admit they did, but you can find plenty of hunters around saying "I told you so back then" today.

Too bad they didn't get off their lazy asses and attend meetings, write letters, and provide input to the process at the beginnings of re-introduction. Now for them to sit on their barstool saying "I told you so" serves them right.

Are you really a "hunter" if you spend your time on a barstool whining while drinking Keystone Light?

 

[JoseCuervo]

From some friends I have in Idaho they say the same thing is happening. Wolves have ruinned the Elk hunting to low numbers. One friend claims world reknown elk hunter Jim Horn was overheard saying he doubted he would ever hunt Idaho again, because of the low numbers of elk. Here in my state they seem to want all the hunters to reduce our herds. All I know the elk aren't what they were 12 years ago when I moved down to this area from the northen end of the state. All can say for you guys with the massive wolf problem is to keep sending letters to the congressman and judges. I have sent letters saying they should reintroduce wolf hunts for Montana and Idaho.

Who the hell is "world reknown" elk hunter Jim Horn?? Why would anyone care where he chooses to hunt? (For the record, Idaho has terrible hunting and everybody would be better off hunting in Utah, plus Utah has the benefit of SFW taking tags from Residents and giving them to Non-Residents).

And, do you really send letters to Judges?? What do you think judges do with your letters.....

And, if you were to spend time somewhere other than a barstool drinking your Keystone Light, you would know that BOTH Idaho and Montana have leagalized wolf hunting. You just have to be able to afford the $11 tag, or, to put it in terms you might understand, the cost of a 30-pack of Keystone Light.

 

[fowladdict]

right letters

Do you always have to be a prick that doesn't know how to use the "right" grammar?

And perhaps T-Panic was talking about letters he "sent" as in the past tense.

Welcome to the site T-Panic!

 

[shoots-straight]

Lets not forget how these low elk numbers where achieved. The number 1 reason was the teaching of our Bio's says that predators have no impact on prey species. They now know this to be false. Add this to the fact that our legislature has been trying to dictate biology through legislation, and this needs to stop. Remember, they told FW&Ps to pick objective numbers for each district and then get then at or below that by 2009. Most cases they picked lower numbers for the area than what was there. So to get the elk killed off the dept. issued thousands of antler less tags. Followed by extended season. This was showing the livestock industry they were committed to reduce elk numbers. All this was at the same time predators were increasing dramatically. Montana has been conservative on Black Bear, Mountain Lions, and now the wolf. To lay blame on the wolf totally is blind. Most of the opportunist crowd are to blame. The mentality that we should be able to all go out and kill a cow is to blame. In my neck of the woods 5000 head of elk left the field in the back of vehicles not by predators in 5 seasons of either sex hunting. (District 250 and 270) Hunter trips went from 12,000 to 16,000 in 2 years. Hunters flock to either sex seasons. Bulls that normally wouldn't have died, did as a result of this type of season. More hunters beating the brush. The sportsman of the Gallatin weren't united, or embraced the either sex mash-em up season, Or they trusted the Dept. to manage them in the interests of the sportsman.

Our local sportsman club is united and has been screaming to put the brakes on the slaughter for over 4 years now. We predicted the crash would come 6 years ago. The last Bio moved away just as the tar and feathers had reached the right temperature. We now have a Bio that also is a big game hunter. He understands whats going on. Although our elk are still crashing we did manage to get the brakes applied sooner than the rest of the state. I've said it before but you fellas over in the Bozeman, and Dillon area's need to get active before the livestock industry destroys the rest of the hunting on public lands. You'll then be forced to pay a trespass fee to hunt. '

BTW, wolves don't care if the land is private or not. Ever wonder why there's more elk on the private. General John Q isn't allowed there year round with all their ATV's and other activities that make elk move off. They go where it's quieter to live. Wolves follow.

Jose, I go to Helena and testify to change things. Squeaky wheel gets the grease. You can always count on the livestock, and outfitting industries to have ample representation. From what I see, most sportsman don't get involved until they loose something. It's usually to late by then. That's fast approaching over in the Bozeman area.

 

[Bambistew]

Personally I think there is more to this than just wolves. A lot of the elk that live in the Gallatin migrate to the Madison Valley to winter. With the wolf pressure on the Madison side they get pushed out to the flats onto private land where they are agressivly 'controled' by hunters. The elk that used to show up on the flats were migrating elk and the 'surplus' consequently the population was able to sustain that kind of hunting pressure. Now that the wolves have driven them out of the forest and they get blasted on the prarie it was a no brainer that the population was set for a crash.

 

[T Mac]

I don't know about that. For the record, I don't own an ATV. But they are everywhere in the Dillon/Lima area and the elk haven't mysteriously dissappeared there the way that they have in the Taylor Fork.

And actually, people did understand what would truely evolve with the wolf issue. They were called hunters. The FWP and the average joe didn't understand it--or atleast they didn't want to admit they did, but you can find plenty of hunters around saying "I told you so back then" today.

So you are saying that FWP doesn't take stock in what us hunters and fishermen say?
---roger that, bellydeep.

And, it doesn't matter how many meetings, or citizens advisory groups you become a member of. FWP has those meetings because they have to, by law..
But they don't have to listen.

In the past 30 years, I have been involved in numerous committees, councils and groups. I have driven hundreds and hundreds of miles and missed a lot of work in doing so. I have testified many times at FWP meetings, to no avail.
About the only time you can get anything done without going over their heads (meaning the legislature) at FWP meetings and on advisory groups is if you already agree with their pre-determined (recommended alternative) scenario for the next management plan.

 

[shoots-straight]

About the only time you can get anything done without going over their heads (meaning the legislature) at FWP meetings and on advisory groups is if you already agree with their pre-determined (recommended alternative) scenario for the next management plan.

Going to the Legislature to mandate policy for FW&Ps has been a livestock Industry standard. It's usually not science oriented, but rather politically motivated. If your part of a sportsman club, and have clout, then going over the local Bio's head to the Commission would have merritt. Just bitching independently wouldn't carry much weight.

 

[belly-deep]

Belly deep-- I'm sure being from the fladhead, you are noticing the whitetail population plummet from our beloved canine friends too huh?? I grew up near there and I've never seen so few deer in a hunting season as i have this past year.............Did get to see tons of bones, hides, wolf crap, and wolf tracks though............unfortunately, none passes inside scope range

Yep, they eat whitetails too. We don't have enough elk to keep the wolves fed, so are pretty hard on our deer.

But the FWP said this year that we weren't seeing many deer because they had given us too many tags last year. ??? Come on, they are getting paid to do this. If they can't see population dives coming a year ahead of time (barring a severe winter kill) what kind of biologists are they? Crappy ones, IMO.

 

[----]

If they can't see population dives coming a year ahead of time (barring a severe winter kill) what kind of biologists are they? Crappy ones, IMO.

Think it's really a biologist problem for the most part?
The few biologists I've had the chance to talk to seem to have their heads in the right place, but are pretty handcuffed with the way FWP plays politics.