B & C Study - 96% Poachers Get Away

[R.K.]

What if animal values were upped to a value that were off the charts?
Grizzly - $250K
Black Bear - $100K
Elk - $100K
Mule Deer - $50K
Whitetail - $50K
These values are just potential examples not a reflection their value to me.

If the animal is considered trophy status, multiplier plus permanent loss of license.

Now I realize the ramifications where this could result in another type of excrement show but there has to be something done to make "deliberate and planned" poaching not worth the financial risk. I know mistakes happen but there has to be differential handling and no clue how? Maybe self reporting eliminates the harsh penalties? IDK Simple tag mistakes same category? But dammit there has to be a better process to punish those who deliberately poach.

Deliberate and planned being the operative here. Especially if done for profit. But with that, I don't think it should apply to what we might call "honest mistakes", and there should be a difference in penalties other than at "prosecutorial discretion".

At the end of the day, accidents will most certainly happen at one point or another. Should someone be financially ruined because they shot a sow black bear whose cubs didn't appear after watching the bear for 30 minutes? Or put a follow-up shot into a deer as it ran in and back out of a thicket that turned out to be a different animal (happened to me, but had tags to cover it)? Or have an extra walleye hide in the corner of a livewell? Or if they drop a second bird on a scotch double to go over the limit?

I feel like self-reporting an accidental violation should carry with it an inherent plea-deal for reduced fines and penalties, as you are 1- not concealing the violation, 2- forfeiting the kill, 3- not wasting the time for an investigation. If there was a clear-cut path for people to say "my bad", come clean, and not the uncertainty of losing hunting/fishing privileges or being financially ruined for honest mistakes, I feel like self-reporting would be far more common.

But that raises the question- what is the balance of the 96% that is intentional and deliberate (tresspassing, wrong unit, no tags, over limit, out of season, wanton waste, etc.), compared to honest mistakes that turn into "shut up and leave quickly" due to the fear of penalties as they are?

 

[mtmuley]

I have called the tip line a few times, not too certain if it did much good.

The tip lines are a joke. At least here in Montana. I called it once. Lady on the phone didn’t even know where my town was. I now have the personal cell numbers of our local wardens. mtmuley

 

[cgasner1]

I once called the tip line because I found a buck someone had shot in the head and left lay. They asked me what I expected them to do about it. I responded with idk maybe go check the bma sign in box and make a few calls. I doubt you catch someone but may rattle a cage so it doesn’t happen again

 

[D4570]

The tip lines are a joke. At least here in Montana. I called it once. Lady on the phone didn’t even know where my town was. I know have the personal cell numbers of our local wardens. mtmuley

One year, we called the tip line and turned in a guy driving on state trust land. We kept hunting, and later that day, a warden tracked us down. He wanted to thank us and tell us that they issued 7 tickets to him and escorted him out of the area. A very pleasant experience.

 

[elkhuntinfool78]

The tip lines are a joke. At least here in Montana. I called it once. Lady on the phone didn’t even know where my town was. I now have the personal cell numbers of our local wardens. mtmuley

I've called multiple times myself to no avail. I also have the local wardens number now as well but he's spread pretty thin.

 

[Mallardsx2]

Poaching would be so easy. Especially with suppressors and thermal. I could easily kill one of the biggest bucks or bull in a unit with that technology.

Its an easy choice for me to not poach but for others, it must be a real life struggle.

 

[Treeshark]

The tip lines are a joke. At least here in Montana. I called it once. Lady on the phone didn’t even know where my town was. I now have the personal cell numbers of our local wardens. mtmuley

This. I have business cards in my visor of the two local wardens as well, it’s nice to have a relationship with them.

 

[hank4elk]

Most likely accurate or low.
Judges and DA's drop cases regularly. Few wardens. Low fines.

I have had incidents reporting here in NM. 1st time was 2 bulls poached and tip led to 3 convictions for out of staters. 1st $10k fines. Took 5 years.

The last 3 locally got myself looked at and little else.

Heard a rifle shot on BLM Sunday and I did not bother to call.
Rifle shots during bow season is a regular thing here.

After 20 yrs of LEO work I will call it in if it is right there in front of me. Nothing will happen, but I will get looked at 1st.
Sad.

 

[Mallardsx2]

Most likely accurate or low.
Judges and DA's drop cases regularly. Few wardens. Low fines.

I have had incidents reporting here in NM. 1st time was 2 bulls poached and tip led to 3 convictions for out of staters. 1st $10k fines. Took 5 years.

The last 3 locally got myself looked at and little else.

Heard a rifle shot on BLM Sunday and I did not bother to call.
Rifle shots during bow season is a regular thing here.

After 20 yrs of LEO work I will call it in if it is right there in front of me. Nothing will happen, but I will get looked at 1st.
Sad.

It must be standard procedure for the government. Then they wonder why most people just don't want to get involved and turn the other cheek....

Several years back, we turned in a firm for practicing fraudulently in a professional capacity.....they were 100% guilty and we provided the proof. To be honest, people should have went to jail over it....

After reporting them, the first question/statement from the Board back to us was: "Well, first we are going to make sure that your company has a COA and that you are on the up and up and then we will potentially look into the complaint."

I was floored....and it was the last time we bothered to reach out to them to report......Government agencies are a joke.

 

[nrpate05]

I haven't read the article, but how do they define poaching? I suppose it could cover the gamut shooting an animal just over a unit boundary and not having a tag for that unit to an organized crime ring.

 

[Forkyfinder]

@Ben Lamb have their been efforts to increase fines in MT?

87-6-907. Restitution for illegal killing, possession, or waste of trophy wildlife, MCA

archive.legmt.gov

My opinion is these are way too cheap - and the risk/reward needs balanced.

(1) mountain sheep with at least one horn equal to or greater than a three-fourths curl as defined by commission regulation, $30,000;

(2) elk with at least six points on one antler, as defined by commission regulation, or any grizzly bear, $8,000;

(3) moose having antlers with a total spread of at least 30 inches, as defined by commission regulation, or any mountain goat, $6,000;

(4) antlered deer with at least four points on one antler as defined by commission regulation, $8,000;

(5) antelope with at least one horn greater than 14 inches in length as defined by commission regulation, $2,000.

 

[MarvB]

I’ve always said there needs to be some kind of citizen arrest program where hunters and train and get licensed to cite game law breakers in the field. Pipe dream I know.

Though having a citizen wildlife militia might sound like a good idea at first blush, the offshoot of public confrontations between armed civilians is a liability nightmare that no govt agency is ever gonna get behind.

We’ve got cases here (central Oregon) that regularly take 2-5 years to grind through the courts after all the appeals… that takes a LEO’s “field time” up to the point of nonexistance. Also have a huge poaching problem on the local Res where much of our deer herd winters but that’s a “hands off/sovereign nation” thing and nothings done.

Take the poaching + the bear/lion/wolf mortality + the Hwy 97 death migration and it’s pretty grim for the mule deer population in our parts

 

[WyoCoalMiner]

The tip lines are a joke. At least here in Montana. I called it once. Lady on the phone didn’t even know where my town was. I now have the personal cell numbers of our local wardens. mtmuley

I have called the Wyo tip line three times. Once for a gun shot bull moose found rotting away, once for a bull elk that was left to rot and once for a group of cow hunters shooting towards I80 from about 100 yds away and more dead cows/calves than hunters. In all three cases, wardens called me back, investigated and let me know of their ultimate findings.

 

[cgasner1]

The sad reality of this thread is why don’t have enough wardens. Montana has some phenomenal ones but it’s just isn’t enough of them. The fines should be high enough that people won’t even think about doing anything illegal. The fines shouldn’t be cheaper than a guided hunt for these animals

 

[RealMuddyboots]

I have found same exact issue with Tip line. And did same by putting local CO in phone. I have found they like getting texts better than calls since they have documentation. And yes, I have zero trouble sending one. I have been witness before in other criminal activities and have been threatened. Just added to the penalty list. Interesting was judge was more pissed off over the threat than the actual crimes?

 

[Ben Lamb]

The last budget has 7 new warden positions in it, along with 7 positions for hunter's education (among some other duties as needed).

MT's approach has been less to increase fines, and more towards increasing the tools used for revocation of privileges. SB 83 and SB 441 from last session also increase enforcement options on lands enrolled under FWP access agreements so as to increase the tools available for wardens and landowners to kick bad actors off of properties. HB 354 last session also included mandatory loss of H/F/T/Shed Hunt privileges for a conviction of criminal trespass.

 

[elkduds]

Think how drastically license allocations would increase if there were little/no poaching.

 

[Hunting Wife]

I now have the personal cell numbers of our local wardens. mtmuley

This is the best way. Meet your warden. Look them up in the agency’s web page. Most have a cell number on there. It’s the quickest way to get hold of someone that can do something. Or call the Sheriff’s department. Depending on the state, they can and will respond to reports as well. See if that’s an option n your state/county.

 

[Moserkr]

Problem is a poacher doesnt care about getting a licensed revoked - they didnt buy one in the first place. Money and time are the only things they care about. But some people have lots of money. Punishments need to increase to discourage poaching, as well as a holding everyone to a higher standard, especially those in social media.

My thoughts for punishment:

-Heavy monetary fines repaid by community service at the state's minimum wage. $30,000 for a sheep at $10/hour, thats 3,000 hours of community service. Bet you think twice. No time to poach again after that one.

-Not only loss of hunting privileges, confiscation of truck, gear, and firearms. Felony sentence so no more firearms purchases.

-Social "influencer" clause - punishments are tripled, no plea deals. It's literally your job to know the law and be a leader in the hunting community. No excuses except for the one below...

-Honesty clause: we all make mistakes. Turning yourself in immediately gets the greatest leniency. Felony to misdemeanor, no loss of rights, small fine or minimal community service.

When poachers force vast resources to be used on them for a conviction, it needs to hurt. I would not want to see accidental poaching by otherwise honest people have the book thrown at them. We all pay the price for people poaching by having opportunity stolen from us and our collective names smeared. Even worse, our wildlife management model fails and the animals pay the ultimate price.

That said, the one last type of poacher, which is less common now than at anytime in the past, is the one doing it to feed their family because of hard times. Still wrong, but there has to be leniency for that in my mind. Im imagining people in the deep South more vs out here in the West.

 

[BucksnDucks]

This is the best way. Meet your warden. Look them up in the agency’s web page. Most have a cell number on there. It’s the quickest way to get hold of someone that can do something. Or call the Sheriff’s department. Depending on the state, they can and will respond to reports as well. See if that’s an option n your state/county.

This is excellent advice. If you as a hunter want to report a violation (especially in progress)

1. call local Wardens if you have number, try to at least have a regional office number. Some areas will give out radio dispatcher's number
2. call Sheriff, Trooper, or PD office-whatever is in your area. They will document, advise, and respond in some cases. Also, can broadcast via radio if no cell signal.
3. call tip line, this will also document incident if you get a recording

If you can record a video or take a pic, great but don't get yourself in a confrontation you don't want to be in.

Information important to responders
Precise location
Vehicle description, direction of travel and or plate number.
Description and number of "poachers"- clothing, color, height, build, approx. age, weapon etc... you've all watched enough cop shows
Wild animals are terrible witnesses to crime, if you're in the field keep an I eye out.