Are we still a Christian nation ?

[Trial153]

I think one can argue that most references to "god" by the founders come more from a perspective of deism then christianity.

As for tolerance ....to quote Jamie Lewis
" Tolerance' implies you're having to put up with something bad

When I consider the word tolerate, I think of blood tests, going to the dentist or babysitting difficult children - not equality"

 

[Ben Long]

How does any of the language used by our fore father’s in April’s original post tell you how to pray? You are free to make any decisions you want regarding to how and who your beliefs are in.

The United States does not have a state religion and it should not. You can be an American and be a Hindu that believes in many gods and reincarnation or an American Indian who believes in traditional beliefs. You can be Mormon, Lutheran, Calvinist, whatever. It matters not a whit to the law. When people say America is a "Christian nation" it implies that, under the law, one religion is above the others. That violates the idea behind the First Amendment and a basic freedom of conscience. More Americans embrace Christianity than embrace any other religion but that doesn't make America a "Christian nation." We are not a "Christian nation" under the law. We are a free nation. Let's respect each other's differences and keep it that way.

 

[Gerald Martin]

And here in the definition of definitions is where a lot of friction lies on this topic.


I think all of us tend to want to interpret the intentions of people we respect(founding fathers) in accordance with our own conclusions about what we think should be a proper identity of our nation.

edit- I was responding to Trial 153’s definition, not Ben Long’s.

 

[Trial153]

And here in the definition of definitions is where a lot of friction lies on this topic.


I think all of us tend to want to interpret the intentions of people we respect(founding fathers) in accordance with our own conclusions about what we think should be a proper identity of our nation.

edit- I was responding to Trial 153’s definition, not Ben Long’s.

Natural law. Seems like a broad enough idea to fit everyone under the umbrella. The whole idea strikes me as coming from a bunch dudes that were more than happy to let others pursue their own ideas of life liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

 

[SAJ-99]

The United States does not have a state religion and it should not. You can be an American and be a Hindu that believes in many gods and reincarnation or an American Indian who believes in traditional beliefs. You can be Mormon, Lutheran, Calvinist, whatever. It matters not a whit to the law. When people say America is a "Christian nation" it implies that, under the law, one religion is above the others. That violates the idea behind the First Amendment and a basic freedom of conscience. More Americans embrace Christianity than embrace any other religion but that doesn't make America a "Christian nation." We are not a "Christian nation" under the law. We are a free nation. Let's respect each other's differences and keep it that way.

This post sums it up nicely, but there have been a lot of good posts on this thread. I doubt I can add much other than my own perspective. Faith, by definition, is belief in the absence of proof. I'm more of a "proof" guy. Unfortunately, throughout history a lot of horrible, heinous acts have been committed with a justification of "God's Will". Christianity was spread by men with a bible in one hand and a sword in the other. It is not a coincidence that the Catholic church is probably the largest holder of real estate in the world (but the tax breaks helps too). We can move forward only with a good understanding of the past, because a lot of those scars still exist. I am a fan of the current Pope because he seems to want to refocus on the true principles of the Christ...or Budda, or Muhammed, or whatever else you may follow because the principles are similar. Somewhere through the arc of time, the message of each got twisted.

 

[rwc101]

And necessary language when trying to legitimize republicanism in a world of divine right.

 

[hossblur]

Were we ever? ACTUALLY? Now days we have social Media to post our "public" selves. How many of our founders had slaves? How many treated women as 3rd class? Their writings rarely moved with their actions.

I think much of the early writings were not as much men living a christian life as it was men wanting others to think they were.

Perhaps I'm cynical, but I find it hard to believe men travelled into an unknown land, killed natives, killed each other, yet where practicing "Christianity" Its sounds great, until an Indian rides by.

Seems the founding and it's writings used Christianity as a goal to aspire to, not as a way of life that was practiced.

 

[SAJ-99]

Perhaps I'm cynical,...

Perhaps?

 

[kansasdad]

“The Islamic Republic of Iran“ is the official name of the 18th most populous nation on earth, and in the name it declares the religious nature of the nation. Culturally Iran is Muslim, and its politics are intimately entwined with the tenants and customs of Islam. Those that are not Muslim are second class citizens and are not treated equally to followers of Islam

Two hundred years earlier The United States of America at its founding went a far different way in establishing itself in its earliest years. Culturally we certainly reflect a Judeo-Christian ethos, but the founders went out of their way to make it known that at its establishment, and while it remains, that there was to be no state religion. I would acknowledge that ours is an imperfect union and at times we have failed to protect its citizens from government control/overreach. And I also acknowledge that individuals or groups have inflicted huge atrocities in the name of “religion” in the USA.

So in answer to the question posed in the first post of this thread, I would answer that culturally we generally are a christian (not capitalized on purpose) nation, but are not and have never been a Christian nation.

Hopefully we can live up to “E pluribus unum” (out of many, one) which appears on our nations crest (in 1782).

 

[OverlordBear]

I am a Christian but I follow the teachings of Jesus Christ alone. Not any church or pastor, both are made up of people and they always fail. If someone actually focuses on the gospels in the Bible you will see how radically uplifting and life giving Jesus’s teachings are, especially for that time period. Jesus taught love, forgiveness, contentment, and self sacrifice being the ultimate goal for individuals. Which is quite frankly the opposite message that most of the world is currently preaching.

I am glad we were influenced as a Christian nation from the out start, but had a strong separation of church and state built into the constitution. Religion is for the person and for the individual soul, it is always used for evil when given the power of governance.

Also people confuse the evil of religion and religious governments and assume that it is equivalent to the Bible. When at no point does the Bible teach or command people to commit the horrors of the crusades or imperialism and any leaders who pretend that the Bible supports their actions are liars.

 

[geetar]

Regardless of how you identify or what you believe it is encouraging to see civil discussion. I identify as a Christian and believe that there is one God and one way to Heaven and that’s by Grace through faith in His Son Jesus but I’m not asking America to be a Christian nation. If America quits believing what I do it doesn’t change me and if you don’t believe what I do I still love and respect you as a human being.

 

[Gerald Martin]

This post sums it up nicely, but there have been a lot of good posts on this thread. I doubt I can add much other than my own perspective. Faith, by definition, is belief in the absence of proof. I'm more of a "proof" guy. Unfortunately, throughout history a lot of horrible, heinous acts have been committed with a justification of "God's Will". Christianity was spread by men with a bible in one hand and a sword in the other. It is not a coincidence that the Catholic church is probably the largest holder of real estate in the world (but the tax breaks helps too). We can move forward only with a good understanding of the past, because a lot of those scars still exist. I am a fan of the current Pope because he seems to want to refocus on the true principles of the Christ...or Budda, or Muhammed, or whatever else you may follow because the principles are similar. Somewhere through the arc of time, the message of each got twisted.

Unfortunately, you are correct that in many cases Christianity was spread by men with swords. However, in many other cases Christianity was spread by men and women whose love for God and their fellow man caused them to willingly enter dangerous situations and spend their lives in service to others even at the cost of their own.

I would make the argument that the latter examples have understood the message and example of Jesus while he was on this earth as he spoke of his kingdom being “not of this world.” and of the paradox of losing your life to find it.

 

[rwc101]

The founding fathers would be clueless on the idea of "Judeo-Christian values" as it was a concept that only came about in the 19th century (a great read). Whenever I hear examples of these values they seem like values that are commonly held throughout much of the world regardless of the predominant religion. I'm not sure why we have to deny the overwhelming influence of the Enlightenment on the founding of our country.

 

[hank4elk]

Raised by Catholic mom & Episcapalian dad. Even went to Catholic 1st grade,til my mom yanked us out.Went to mass until I said no more as a teenager.
Studied many religions and have never found a religion nor "Faith" to believe in. Talked to the big guy a few times.No reply.No miraculas events when needed either.
This country was founded on the believe as you wish nation,same with votes. No one can tell another which to do.
I also have never been a member of a political party.I vote for who I wish.
But I wish the best to all. And what goes around comes around.

 

[Addicting]

The United States does not have a state religion and it should not. You can be an American and be a Hindu that believes in many gods and reincarnation or an American Indian who believes in traditional beliefs. You can be Mormon, Lutheran, Calvinist, whatever. It matters not a whit to the law. When people say America is a "Christian nation" it implies that, under the law, one religion is above the others. That violates the idea behind the First Amendment and a basic freedom of conscience. More Americans embrace Christianity than embrace any other religion but that doesn't make America a "Christian nation." We are not a "Christian nation" under the law. We are a free nation. Let's respect each other's differences and keep it that way.

While I don’t disagree with your statement. It does not answer my question. How does....

“Our Treasury says we are. " In God We Trust"

Our Judicial says we are "So help me God"

Our President and Congress members say we are when they take their oath " So help me God"

Some educational institutions still recite the pledge of allegiance " One Nation under God"

Our Declaration of Independence makes 4 references to God

The Liberty Bell ----etc.”

.....Tell you how to pray or even if you have to? Fact is, it doesn’t, and that is the answer to the question.

All of those religions you mentioned have a form of a God. Under the vague use of the title God, it could be interpreted differently by each and every American.

I know what means to me, and that is what matters. I do respect what it means to others and I hope and pray when they are in their final moments it brings them peace.

 

[SAJ-99]

While I don’t disagree with your statement. It does not answer my question. How does....

“Our Treasury says we are. " In God We Trust"

Our Judicial says we are "So help me God"

Our President and Congress members say we are when they take their oath " So help me God"

Some educational institutions still recite the pledge of allegiance " One Nation under God"

Our Declaration of Independence makes 4 references to God

The Liberty Bell ----etc.”

.....Tell you how to pray or even if you have to? Fact is, it doesn’t, and that is the answer to the question.

All of those religions you mentioned have a form of a God. Under the vague use of the title God, it could be interpreted differently by each and every American.

I know what means to me, and that is what matters. I do respect what it means to others and I hope and pray when they are in their final moments it brings them peace.

Good point, but the Constitution has no reference to God. Zero. Why the difference?

 

[SAJ-99]

Unfortunately, you are correct that in many cases Christianity was spread by men with swords. However, in many other cases Christianity was spread by men and women whose love for God and their fellow man caused them to willingly enter dangerous situations and spend their lives in service to others even at the cost of their own.

I would make the argument that the latter examples have understood the message and example of Jesus while he was on this earth as he spoke of his kingdom being “not of this world.” and of the paradox of losing your life to find it.

Agree, some people have spread the word of Christianity through peaceful means, but history shows that the tactical use of the sword was far more effective. After all, the victors get to write the history.

 

[Deleted member 38069]

For all that are interested, this book covers this well! Its a great read especially for becoming Unashamed! Phil is extremely relatable on his journey to God!

 

[Gerald Martin]

Agree, some people have spread the word of Christianity through peaceful means, but history shows that the tactical use of the sword was far more effective. After all, the victors get to write the history.

This is certainly true that victors write history. In terms of “christianizing” people to perform religious rites or make a profession of belief in certain doctrines or dogma nothing is quite as effective as giving someone the choice of say the words and do the deeds or die. It is at this point that the discussion of what actually makes a person a “Christian”
becomes relevant. Jesus himself said that not everyone who calls me Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven.

Jesus’ harshest rebukes during his time of ministry were to the religious leaders of that day who were given the responsibility of teaching men to follow God, yet misrepresented God’s intent and His character in the way they presented His teaching for their own benefit and interests.

They killed him for it.

Many men have killed others in the name of God either in their ignorance of the nature of Christ or for a myriad of other motives that deemed justifiable or necessary.

This is not unique to Christianity. It happened and still happens under the banner of many other religions or ideologies that are religious in nature such as the many “isms” that totalitarian governments use to exert total control over their subjects.

I think it’s more reflective of the nature of men to attempt to coerce and control rather than a measure of the validity of a specific religion.

Back to the topic of the origins of our nation, I am thankful for the wisdom of how our nation was founded regardless of what specific level of Christian faith or religious affiliation each founder had.

 

[Pagosa]

I don’t think any nation was ever a Christian nation. Even the Jews, God’s chosen people rebelled multiple times from one generation to the next. Nations are normally led by ego-maniacs, that are driven by the pride of life, lust of the flesh, or pursuit of money. People have a natural sinful desire to rebel against God and live a destructive life. The US Constitution was mostly developed to minimize a monarchy, allow individual freedoms, private property rights, and protection of those freedoms through militias. The separation of Church and State, was written for the protection of the Church from the government (Dansberry Church in Dansberry, VA had written the designers of the Constitution to ensure this separation), not to separate the government and the Church.
I believe the only Christian Nation that will ever rule on this earth will be when Jesus Christ sets up His earthly Kingdom and people will walk with the Lord and gladly follow Him. Until then the devil has control of this earth, but his time is short and this earth is winding down along with each of our lifespans and days we have to chose in our future ruler on this earth. Preston