Anti-Hunter/Anti-Bison bill up in Senate Fish and Game Tommorrow

[1_pointer]

Another point is this: if the state doesn't do something that preserves and enhances the genetics of bison, then we're looking at another listable species.

Could you expound on his a bit? I'm not quite following you on this point.

SS- Two of the three "wild" herds in UT are not fenced. One is on an island. The herd in the Book Cliffs, a more recent reintro than the Henry's, is causing some unintended and a bit surprising vegetation impacts. Long term impacts may not be quite what was predicted. Doesn't hurt that most of that part of the state is owned by one entity of the government.

 

[Ben Lamb]

Sure, the point is this: Yellowstone is an island, genetically. If we don't do something to increase the genetic vaibility of those bison inside of Yellowstone, which are widely regarded as the most genetically pure bison left, then some group will ultimately petition the USFWS to list the bison as endangered, forcing the fed to either preclude, or list under the endangered species act.

If listed, then a whole new set of problems arise, as we see with the wolf. Under a listing, the needs of all other species become much more subservient to the one. In this case, we'll see federal mandates to conserve bison as wildlife in areas where the states would have less say in where. That truly does mean impacts to livestock producers in so much as the historic habitat went as far as Pennsylvania. Once it gets in to that realm (the fed), groups like Center for Biological Diversity and others have a much better chance of working the system and getting bison across a broader swath of land than what is currently being considered. The decision to list will come down to the genetics. While there are numerous commercial bison herds, most of those are intermingled with cattle genetics at some level.

Maintaining genetically pure strains of bison through state conservation is the best way to eliminate the argument that bison will become extinct. It's the best way to keep the management in states hands.

SS - The Henry herd has about 500 bison in it. Right now, they share ground with livestock (there are two allotments, I believe). Some people are saying that the bison are impeding on the livestock producers forage (on public land), and so some folks are buying them off. For the most part, those bison don't hurt other wildlife species in the henry's and there is no major fencing that occurs other than maintaining the usual 4-5 strand barbed wire on allotments as far as I know.

That's really what folks are looking at, small, isolated herds where the geography and land uses are compatible with reintroducing bison. The Henry's is a fine example to base some reintroductions on, but really, I'm not sure we'd want to go down the road of buying off grazing permittees to allow a few hundred head of bison to roam in isolated tracts.

I'm not familiar with the problems that the Book Cliffs herd is causing.

 

[cowboy]

Another point is this: if the state doesn't do something that preserves and enhances the genetics of bison, then we're looking at another listable species. As much fun as we've had with wolves, grizz and fairy shrimp, I'm not sure I want to spend another decade doing what the USFWS wants us to do to maintain the viability of a species.
What's really at risk is the future of bison, not the future hunting opportunity that could come.

So is it my understanding that we should support this for maintaining a genetic pure bison herd and not worry about the hunting.? This last years count on the YNP herd was 3900. Now if we take a few small bunches a couple of hundred miles away that will help? How are we going to maintain a "pure herd" in small numbers at various locations? Now we're talking shipping different bulls in every year.

If it can be done with NO fence I'm all for it (I personally do not see that as an option that will fly). If there has to be a fence and there is a hunting season I don't even want to see what the fuzzy huggers and Buffalo Campaign people will do to the added reputation of hunters shooting buffalo in a an enclosed fence sponsored and run by our G&F. I know - the hell with them - we'll do what we want to do and it's public land.

As for the question on the buffalo herds in So. Dak.. All are private enclosed except one herd - and that is run by the State of SD in Custer State Park (Which also has a enclosed fence). Custer State Park allows hunting (including elk, deer, antelope, turkey, Big Horn Sheep, etc.) on special draw to control herd size. They have an annual roundup where they "balance" the buffalo herd by holding an auction for excess to the general public for the buffalo.

 

[1_pointer]

Can't see how the genetics of that herd alone would keep it listed with other wild herds in other states and parts of the county. I completely understand the concern of listing and it's impact to management.

One of the big problems with the herds on the Henry's is that they didn't go or stay where it was thought they would/should. They are causing some vegetative impacts (salt desert shrub communities) due in large part to them staying in places they probably shouldn't for longer time periods than they should be there.

I haven't heard of grazing permits being retired or bought out on the Henry's, but know that it happend in the Book Cliffs. An interesting impact in the Books that I've heard about through anecedotal data is that elk are devoid in a few canyons that they used quite heavily previously when cattle used them also. The bison aren't using these areas either. Pretty interesting stuff...

 

[Sytes]

With respect to other wildlife being adversely effected by Bison...

We have the National Bison Range... it is fenced... with access for elk and deer to cross / enter - exit the range... A protected area so maybe it explains why there are some BRUISER Elk and Muleys... (?) If elk and deer do not co-exist too well with bison - what is the exception to this area? Geographic location? Many occasions fishing in the area - we have seen monsters abound the range.

 

[belly-deep]

With respect to other wildlife being adversely effected by Bison...

We have the National Bison Range... it is fenced... with access for elk and deer to cross / enter - exit the range... A protected area so maybe it explains why there are some BRUISER Elk and Muleys... (?) If elk and deer do not co-exist too well with bison - what is the exception to this area? Geographic location? Many occasions fishing in the area - we have seen monsters abound the range.

Its not that deer and elk don't coexist well with bison, it is that they don't coexist well with the fences you have to put up to contain the bison, not the bison themselves.

However, I would be curious to see a study of some sorts on a bison's feeding habits in a tough winter. We now know that during a tough winter, elk will out compete deer. What do bison do? My guess is, they won't fare as well as elk. An elk's advantage is that when both the elk and deer eat up all of the readily available forage, elk can reach higher to more food whereas the deer cannot.

 

[mtmiller]

As for the question on the buffalo herds in So. Dak.. All are private enclosed except one herd - and that is run by the State of SD in Custer State Park (Which also has a enclosed fence). Custer State Park allows hunting (including elk, deer, antelope, turkey, Big Horn Sheep, etc.) on special draw to control herd size. They have an annual roundup where they "balance" the buffalo herd by holding an auction for excess to the general public for the buffalo.

Badlands National Park also has bison. Loved walking up on them in the dark.

They are fenced as well.

 

[cowboy]

Badlands National Park also has bison. Loved walking up on them in the dark.

They are fenced as well.

Miller: You are absolutely correct - I forgot about Badlands.

 

[Ben Lamb]

So is it my understanding that we should support this for maintaining a genetic pure bison herd and not worry about the hunting.? This last years count on the YNP herd was 3900. Now if we take a few small bunches a couple of hundred miles away that will help? How are we going to maintain a "pure herd" in small numbers at various locations? Now we're talking shipping different bulls in every year.

If it can be done with NO fence I'm all for it (I personally do not see that as an option that will fly). If there has to be a fence and there is a hunting season I don't even want to see what the fuzzy huggers and Buffalo Campaign people will do to the added reputation of hunters shooting buffalo in a an enclosed fence sponsored and run by our G&F. I know - the hell with them - we'll do what we want to do and it's public land.

As for the question on the buffalo herds in So. Dak.. All are private enclosed except one herd - and that is run by the State of SD in Custer State Park (Which also has a enclosed fence). Custer State Park allows hunting (including elk, deer, antelope, turkey, Big Horn Sheep, etc.) on special draw to control herd size. They have an annual roundup where they "balance" the buffalo herd by holding an auction for excess to the general public for the buffalo.

Cowboy, when we first started restoring elk, deer and other species, we had limited hunts, if it all, while the herds were being built up. This is no different than that. The hunts will come, if bison are restored to acceptable landscapes. Maybe not in the first couple of years, but then, hunters know that immediate gratification can be withheld in order to conserve a species. Moving bulls or other animals every year is already happening in so much as the quarantine facilities already gather these bison up, test them for 5 years, and then supposedly will dispose of the animals after they have tested brucellosis free for those 5 years. There will always be surplus bison coming out of Yellowstone. Do we simply slaughter those to maintain a small herd in the park? We tried that with elk in the early 20th century, and now we have a similar situation with bison.

The problem with the Yellowstone herd is that we continually deplete the genetics, which waters down the overall health of the herd. I'm not a geneticist, but from the folks that study this that I've talked with, there is a growing concern about the issue. So yes, conserving a few hundred bison now will pay large dividends in the long term. The problem with most other wild herds is that there is a lot of interbreeding with cattle, so the genes are muddled. What bison represent is the same as what we have in some areas regarding Yellowstone cutthroat, or other species that have been extirpated from their historical habitats.

As for the ESA, the mechanisms within the act call for looking at the genetics, historic distribution, as well as a few other issues. This is a growing concern for FWP, and others who are much more involved in the mechanics than I.

 

[BuzzH]

Ben,

I applaud your efforts and I've sent my response to the bill to all on the list.

However, the two guys pointing out all the problems in this thread are typical...they're quick to point out the problems...but neither have offered up solutions. They also dont realize that the intent of blocking the current proposed legislation is because it will prevent even exploring the posibility of bison reintroduction.

Its foolish and irresponsible...as well as wrong-headed, for legislation like this to even be proposed and everyone who hunts should be stomping up and down on their representatives desks to prevent it.

Instead, all you get is excuses for non-action...which is on par with the complacency of 99.9% of hunters in all states. They dont want to do any of the heavy lifting...just gripe about those that do.

 

[Ben Lamb]

Thanks Buzz.

These guys have great questions and concerns, but ultimately, we'll never get the answers if the bill passes. We'll also lose what little bison hunting we have in MT.

 

[belly-deep]

However, the two guys pointing out all the problems in this thread are typical...they're quick to point out the problems...but neither have offered up solutions.

I have offered up a solution--don't touch it. I thought I made that pretty clear earlier (actually, I think I said it in my first post).

Its funny though Buzz, you are quick to attack others, yet one could say that you are acting very typically as well; you're living out in the middle of dreamland and your feet are a long way from the ground. As it stands, you haven't offered up a solution yet either. I know you like to puff your feathers up and say things like "make the ranchers pay for their own fences" but you and I both know that won't be happening.

 

[BuzzH]

belly-deep,

Dont touch what?

You find no problem with the public and public land hunters being stripped of their rights/ability to at least have open dialogue about reintroducing big-game on Montanas landscape?

Seriously?

We're ^%$#ed...

Thank you...for nothing, as per usual.

I better not ever hear you complain when similar legislation is passed that stops all discussions regarding transplanting bighorn sheep, elk, goats, etc. etc. etc.

Or better yet, stops all discussions about anything to do with MT's wildlife and public lands...just stand there and take it like a mule deer in November...they know whats best for you.

 

[belly-deep]

Thank you...for nothing, as per usual.

Right back at ya

 

[BuzzH]

belly-deep,

I understand the implications of crap legislation when I see it, and what it means looking down the road past next hunting season...

I've grown very accustomed to "hunters" failing to understand issues, one step further, I also expect nothing from them. Just like you, most never fail to impress.

Its typical for 1% to do 99% of the work...and 100% of the thinking.

You're welcome.

 

[cowboy]

However, the two guys pointing out all the problems in this thread are typical...they're quick to point out the problems...but neither have offered up solutions. They also dont realize that the intent of blocking the current proposed legislation is because it will prevent even exploring the posibility of bison reintroduction.
They dont want to do any of the heavy lifting...just gripe about those that do.

Well BuzzH I guess I'm the other guy you're referring to. Being a guest in Big Fin's site I'll try and act as a guest.
Go back and read what I offered up as a solution - it makes as much sense as trucking bison all over to protect genetics in the hope that "in a few years" there may be "a few tags". As far as how dumb us pions are and don't understand the bill I'll say that being in the industrial construction business here in Mt. for 30 plus years I do understand the areas that are under consideration. And the fact that I've spent 25 years working the winters in YNP off and on as well as being in every corner of YNP I do understand buffalo.
Unlike you I do respect the private owners and their personal rights on their personal property - especially when it comes to buffalo. I've had buffalo on my place up at Silvergate and I don't like it or the results of it. There is a difference from a land owners acceptance between a re-introduced elk, sheep, goat or whatever compared to a buffalo.
Now as far as the lifting goes and just griping. After many 1000's of hours donated personal time and money involved with RMEF the last 30 yrs. in money raising and ground acquisition as well as SCI and others I've spent way too much time and money for habitat for elk-deer etc. to see another factor thrown in that will have an effect on their winter range. If you think we have any excess winter range that will not have an effect on our current wildlife - then go full speed ahead with your buffalo crusade.
You are entitled to your opinion, as well as I am to mine but all I can say is read your sign off - you moved way too far away from Missoula.
With that said I'll sign off on this as I can see where things are about to get personal and I've been known not to back down from a fight.
Good Luck gentleman - I know BuzzH - you're saying good riddance.

 

[shoots-straight]

Go back and read what I offered up as a solution - it makes as much sense as trucking bison all over to protect genetics in the hope that "in a few years" there may be "a few tags". As far as how dumb us pions are and don't understand the bill I'll say that being in the industrial construction business here in Mt. for 30 plus years I do understand the areas that are under consideration. And the fact that I've spent 25 years working the winters in YNP off and on as well as being in every corner of YNP I do understand buffalo.

Cowboy, you do understand that figuring out solutions to Montana's Bison problem isn't the debate here. It's whether or not we should get to discuss any type of solutions. Taking away the chance at somebody coming up with great solutions is wrong. Unless of course your threatened by Bison perhaps replacing livestock in some fashion.

Unlike you I do respect the private owners and their personal rights on their personal property - especially when it comes to buffalo. I've had buffalo on my place up at Silvergate and I don't like it or the results of it. There is a difference from a land owners acceptance between a re-introduced elk, sheep, goat or whatever compared to a buffalo.

So I take it,you feel we shouldn't get the chance to discuss any options concerning Bison, because your a "Private Land Owner".? If what we would discuss wouldn't impact Ranchers or landowners, why would that give you the right to silence us? I believe in the Democratic Process, and healthy debate.

 

[BuzzH]

Hey cowboy...

A couple things you may want to consider...

Maybe reading the legislation would be the first step to understanding it...have you? I'm highly suspect that you have. I'm open to debate the bison issue...just seems lawmakers arent willing to let anyone have that basic right VIA stripping those rights through the legislature.

Its my contention that if legislation is passed to disallow public input on an issue like bison, the next reasonable conclusion is next time some legislator gets the hankering...they can propose similar dumb ideas to stop discussion of reintroducing sheep, deer, etc. etc. etc. without allowing the public or biology a chance to pursue viable options. Not a place I care to go...or a right I feel good about giving up.

I'm all about property rights...both in regard to private and public. Just because a bison might wander onto private once in a while is not justification for not having them on public lands. Would it be fair for me to want to keep cattle/horses/sheep off all public lands because one might get away, stray onto my private property, eat my rose bushes and shit in my yard?

I dont think so.

I think this bill will die a rightful death...and with any luck the hunters in John Brendens district will send him packing next election.

 

[belly-deep]

I've grown very accustomed to "hunters" failing to understand issues, one step further, I also expect nothing from them. Just like you, most never fail to impress.

I find it interesting that you will always turn to personal attacks when you don't make a good enough point on the issues. In this case, by putting quotes around "hunters" you are trying to get the point across that you believe me to be an inferior sportsman in some regard because I don't want to air-drop buffalo all over the country side like some shaggy D-Day invasion.

 

[Ben Lamb]

I don't want to air-drop buffalo all over the country side like some shaggy D-Day invasion.

I support this. C-130's filling the sky, dropping shaggies will-nilly.It makes perfect sense. It would be like Band of Brothers, but with Bison.

We need to sell the film rights.