Another chance for salmon!

[Ithaca 37]

With an attitude like the gummints we're in trouble!

"PORTLAND — A federal judge ruled Wednesday that government programs to protect threatened and endangered salmon runs in the Columbia River Basin do not meet the requirements of the Endangered Species Act. ...................................Samuel Rauch III, arguing for the U.S. Justice Department, said the government is not required to ensure that the stocks will not go extinct, only to “not … diminish the likelihood of recovery” from a threatened species listing."

http://204.228.236.37/story.asp?ID=39323

 

[JoseCuervo]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>A coalition of environmental and fishermen´s groups sued in May 2001, claiming the biological opinion “capriciously and without any rational basis” concluded that the plan would not put the fish stocks in jeopardy of extinction. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Together for the same cause, environmental and fishermen's groups. The same agenda. Idaho Rivers United does a pretty good job of keeping things "flowing" the right direction in Idaho. If anybody has $$$ to send to a good cause, IRU should be considered.

I love the Bush administration, claiming that dams don't diminish the opportunity for recovery. No wonder the Judges side with the Wildlife, as the Bush administration makes stupid comments like that....

I say Breach 'em...... And let the good times flow.....

er

 

[BuzzH]

Samuel Rauch III, doesnt know his ass from hot rocks when it comes to salmon and the dams that absolutely have devastated the anadromous fish of Idaho.

Makes me wonder where the government digs up people like that. I also cant comprehend how anyone can look at the Columbia River Basin salmon and steelhead and argue that "all is well and the dams havent hurt a thing."

Not only do attitudes like that of Samuel Rauch III defy common sense, but also defies all the existing science that clearly and undoubtedly shows that dams are the number one reason for drastic declines in anadromous fish. I wonder if he even knows what a salmon looks like, because its obvious he doesnt understand the issues.

There is nothing better in the world of fishing than hooking a nickel bright King Salmon on the middle fork of the Clearwater, I just hope I dont have to wait 20 years to experience that again...like I had to between the years of 1978 and 2000.

Hopefully this is good news and the dams are breached in the very near future.

 

[Lostagain]

Hell, they'll have to have another 20 year-400 million dollar STUDY.

 

[BuzzH]

LA, the studying is done, completed a couple years ago...its called the PATH report.

Now all thats required is to follow the directive of the 200 or so experts who are all in agreement that breaching the 4 Snake dams is the only way to ensure the long term survival of anadromous fish in Idaho.

 

[BigHornyRam]

Buzz,

Better get over there. I hear the salmon are biting. My neighbor just came back with 2 and gave me some steaks. On the barbque with cajon spice, yum! He's heading back over in a couple days. Maybe he can catch you one? Seems to me the efforts to restore the runs are starting to pay off. What makes you guys think that the salmon will become extinct?

For those of you who favor dam breaching, here is an idea. In an unselfish show of support, prove how unnecessary those dams are and disconnect your electric supply. Let us know when you get the job done, and I for one will support the breaching. And W. H., if you disconnect your power, I will also support breaching of the Columbia dams as well.

Paul

 

[Washington Hunter]

From what I've read on the subject, the Snake River dams produce very little electricity. I don't know why that would be, but I'm no expert on dams either. Seems the main problem anybody has with removal of the Snake River dams is the loss of cheap transportation of wheat. I haven't heard anything about a loss of electricity. What do you know about it Paul? Oh..also wind farms are being built in eastern Washington, I think around Walla Walla and maybe one around Richland/Kennewick. Maybe those will make up for whatever electricity is lost due to removal of dams.

 

[JoseCuervo]

I am sure we can find the number, but I believe the power output of the dams on the Snake is about 3% of the BPA's total production, and the BPA is a Net seller of power, so it is "excess" in a manner of speaking.

Cheap transportation for barge traffic is the only economic benefit of these dams, and that is only because the US ARmy Corp of Eng. does not allocate the dredging costs to the shippers. Make the Port of Lewiston pay for the dredging, and the shipping would be gone. And, the fact there are highways and railroad tracks along the river, the barge traffic is not needed.

Flood control is Zero, as these dams are kept at Full Pool all the time.

There are a handful of farmers that pump water out of the river, but the analysis I saw said you could give them each a couple of million $$$ to go away, and they would be far richer than they will ever get trying to farm that land, and pump water with the electricity.

Those dams really don't have much economic benefit, and I believe the Port of Lewiston would have the most to lose.

er

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 05-09-2003 08:12: Message edited by: Elkgunner ]</font>

 

[BuzzH]

Paul, I would head over to the Clearwater, but the middle fork is closed because of lack of a salmon run. It was open last year and the year before, clear to the confluence of White Sands Creek, only about 1 hour from Missoula.

I've fished alot in the lower river too, below the N. Fork, but it just isnt the same. I still have a decent supply of salmon from last year on the middle fork of the Clearwater and my annual trip to British Columbia.

Speaking of those Salmon in the clearwater...they already have gone extinct. The original run of Salmon on the Clearwater were a much larger strain. I'm sure you dont know this, but another dam was partially built at the mouth of the Clearwater/Snake River...called the Clearwater Dam. The project took so long, the salmon were unable to move upstream past it for 6 years...that doesnt exactly guarantee much for salmon futures...does it? Anyway, the dam was finally removed. The fish we have now in the Clearwater are Rapid River strain, which are excellent fish but much smaller. Average between 12-25 pounds as compared to the original clearwater strain that was much larger 20-50 pounds.

Paul, you asked why I think the salmon will go extinct? Pretty easy answer to that, every single wild run of Salmon and Steelhead in Idaho have been in a drastic decline for over 25 years and all are listed as threatened. You cant fish steelhead at all above Clear Creek on the Clearwater, the Selway (from what I understand the absolute best steelhead water in Idaho) was closed in the mid 70's because of lack of fish. I wonder how those 2-3 sockeye, or a couple years ago, one loner, that reach Red Fish Lake in Idaho each year feel about your comment that the salmon arent in trouble? I fished salmon on the middle fork in 1978 and had to wait another 21 years to do it again, despite exhaustive techno fixes and assurances from the Army Corps, crooked Idaho Politicians, etc. that we would have a run "next year". Sorry for being a cynic, but having to wait 21 years between salmon sesons is a bit harsh. I wonder how you'd feel about having to wait 21 years between hunting seasons? Also, please take a close look at the number of fish entering the mouth of the Columbia River now compared to pre-dams. You'll find a very troubling and pathetic story. Historically over 20 million anadromous fish hit the mouth of the Columbia, today, we're doing cart-wheels when 1 million enter the Columbia. Reduce the elk, deer, bear, etc. Populations in MT to 1/20th of their current numbers...You'd be crying, whining, pissing, and moaning non-stop...it'd be a CRISIS.

Whats funny, is you head north less than 200 miles from the Columbia and you hit another River in British Columbia called the Fraser River...very similar to the Columbia. Last salmon season over 12 million Sockeye salmon, just sockeye, entered the mouth of the Fraser...we're not factoring in silvers, kings, pinks, chums, sea-run cutthroat, and steelhead. The total would be well in excess of 30 million fish.

Also fair to note is that the ENTIRE Fraser River drainage has a single dam on the Stave River (a trib. to the Fraser), thats it. Compared to the Columbia system, which if I remember right has 118 dams present.

Gee, I wonder why the Fraser is still so productive? HMMMMM?????I wonder????

Oh, and as far as your electricity argument goes, its lame and not valid. The 4 Snake dams provide less than 5% of the power to the NW. This could be easily mitigated by increasing the efficiency of the remaining dams on the Columbia. That way, nobody would have to shut their power off, and we could quit spending billions on salmon recovery efforts that dont work. I could have my salmon and leave the lights on while I filet them.

You wont win this argument Paul, because you cant. But, its fun to watch someone try.

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 05-09-2003 08:21: Message edited by: BuzzH ]</font>

 

[Ithaca 37]

Paul, If you're gonna debate this crowd it would be wise to educate yourself on the issue before you start. It's real obvious you don't even know the basics. How about telling us how much electricity is produced by the Snake River dams and how many farms benefit from irrigation water provided by them ? We've discussed it here many times, so you'd only have to go back thru the topics from the last year or so.

 

[JoseCuervo]

Buzz,

Breaching the 4 dams on the Snake is not the only way to ensure the survival of the fish. You could always breach the 4 on the Snake plus the dams on the Columbia

Actually that would be an Extreme environmental position. I will be happy with the dams on the Snake going.

Can you imagine what a cool "reverse engineering" project that will be? Dismantleing those dams? The US Army Corp of Engineers has already been doing the studies on how to remove the dams. From a spectator point, I hope they just blast the Upstream one, and allow the wave surge to take out the lower ones....

I have been told by one of the attorneys who is leading these suits, that we will see these dams removed in our lifetime. He is that confident. I think that will become one of the greatest environmental accomplishments in the State of Idaho, ranking up there with the establishment of the Frank Church.

er

 

[Ithaca 37]

Paul, Read this earlier topic and then come back and defend the dams when you know a little more.

http://www.huntandlodge.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=31&t=000987

Here's some more dam reading:

http://www.enn.com/enn-news-archive/1999/04/041699/breach_2707.asp

And here's some more dam info:

http://www.wildsalmon.org/info/index.cfm

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 05-09-2003 22:53: Message edited by: Ithaca 37 ]</font>

 

[Delw]

You guys still seem to forget that the #1 major probelm with salmon is the indians.... if they can net the rivers then you aint getting any no matter how many dams are breeched... As long as the federal gov. lets the indians gill net the rivers and bay's at the mouth of the rivers .. you can kiss your salmon population good bye


Buzz: 25 (really it was 1980 I think)years ago is when the federal court let the indians gill net 90% of the river. werent thhese dams there before then?

Delw

 

[Ithaca 37]

6. MYTH: It's not the dams that are killing salmon; it's the tribal, commercial, and sport harvesters that are responsible.

REALITY: The total in-river (tribal, commercial, sport) harvest of Snake River spring and summer chinook now accounts for about 9 percent of the run. Due to migration patterns of these stocks in conjunction with fishing seasons, ocean harvest in nearly non-existent. For Snake River fall chinook-a much more abundant stock-combined ocean and in-river harvest of Snake River fall chinook is less than 30 percent.

Tribal harvesters-those guaranteed by treaty to fish-have reduced annual harvest to a fraction of historical levels, and currently only fish commercially for fall chinook. Tribal commercial fishers stopped fishing for summer chinook in 1965, for spring chinook in 1977, and for sockeye in 1988. Non-Indian commercial and sport fishers from Oregon to Alaska have also greatly reduced harvest.

What these numbers, which pale in comparison to hydro-related salmon mortality, demonstrate clearly is that harvest is not the problem. While federal fish managers continue to chip away at the already minimal harvest numbers, they refuse to hold the real fish killers-the dams-accountable and to reduce their impacts by any significant measure at all.

http://www.wildsalmon.org/about/mythsrealities.htm

 

[Delw]

Ithaca.. its not a myth...

I lived on the river and have seen what the indians did to it. So I no for a fact that its not true like they say...
I will say the dams are some problems but I still say the indians are the #1 reason for the salmon destruction...

Hell hunterman and I were just talking about this very subject on the phone last week....not about the dam's but about the indians ruining the salmon spawns...

Look at the rivers I explained in the other thread and tell me how a dam cause the problem when there are no dams on those rivers..... The indians did this on all the rivers in washington....


for example.... if a million fish went up the river and the inland fisheries got 10% of them you end up with 100,000 fish...

the indians take all but 2 fish you aint going to end up with squat....

Salmon ran the columbia but not like they ran the closer water ways.
If I remeber correctly the biggest runs of salmon where on the cowlitz, green, snohimish(sp) tutle river(mt saint helens took care of that) puyallup etc... I belive the columbia was in the top 30 for salmon runs but didnt produce near the salmon that the other rivers produced....


Delw

 

[BuzzH]

Delw, you got your facts mixed up...

The Columbia, historically, was one of the most productive Salmon rivers in the NW.

20-30 million anadromous fish a year, the Cowlitz gets that? The Cowlitz has never had that many fish in it.

You say the indians killed salmon stocks?

Please explain to me what happened with Grand Coulee dam. Completely wiped out the largest (in body size) strain of Chinook Salmon in N.A. The "june hogs" were as big and bigger than the Chinook still found in the Kenai River in AK, fish over 80 pounds were common. All gone, because there isnt a fish ladder. How about the N. Fork of the Clearwater strain of steelhead and salmon? Yep Dworsak Dam stopped the migration and wiped out those strains of steelhead and salmon as well. Oh, and by the way, the N. Fork strain of steelhead were once again the largest body sized steelhead found anywhere in N.A. similar to the Thompson River strain in British Columbian....all just memories now. I wonder how you can blame that on the Indians and not the dams that have forever blocked the migration of millions of fish and taken away thousands of miles of spawning tributaries???? I'm awaiting your reply.

 

[Delw]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>6. MYTH: It's not the dams that are killing salmon; it's the tribal, commercial, and sport harvesters that are responsible.

REALITY: The total in-river (tribal, commercial, sport) harvest of Snake River spring and summer chinook now accounts for about 9 percent of the run. Due to migration patterns of these stocks in conjunction with fishing seasons, ocean harvest in nearly non-existent. For Snake River fall chinook-a much more abundant stock-combined ocean and in-river harvest of Snake River fall chinook is less than 30 percent. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

look at this its flawed.... the compare NOW to back then.... now it might be nine percent due to the runs they have now, but 20+ years ago it was like 80% if not more on the columbia...
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> [Tribal harvesters-those guaranteed by treaty to fish-have reduced annual harvest to a fraction of historical levels, and currently only fish commercially for fall chinook. Tribal commercial fishers stopped fishing for summer chinook in 1965, for spring chinook in 1977, and for sockeye in 1988. Non-Indian commercial and sport fishers from Oregon to Alaska have also greatly reduced harvest.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Reason being again is the federal law in 1980 that allowed them to gill net 90% of the river... if you completely demolish a population it will take time for them to come back.. if they can at all....

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>What these numbers, which pale in comparison to hydro-related salmon mortality, demonstrate clearly is that harvest is not the problem. While federal fish managers continue to chip away at the already minimal harvest numbers, they refuse to hold the real fish killers-the dams-accountable and to reduce their impacts by any significant measure at all. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Now what we are seeing is that the fish are no longer threatend as much by the indians so they blame the problem on the dam's.. 20+ years ago the dams werenot the major problem the indians were so now that the indians are not getting the fish that they use to people now blame it on the dam's....


Heres a simple fix to the problem before people breech dams...

get the damn indians to stop gill netting the rivers and if its not to late in 10-20 years you will have very healthy salmon runs, of cource this is going to have to have help with stocking salmon from other rivers into new ones when they are just 1 week old fry. the reason for that is salmon will come back up the river they have been born...
You cant take an adult salmon and put it in another river hoping it will spawn cause it wont(chances are 90% it wont) but if you take them when they are just little fingerlings or better yet just fertilized eggs you will have a better success rate.

now one other problem with the salmon in the columbia(just below the snake) is the fact that the small mouth bass fishery has exploded. small mouth bass love salmon fry and there are millions of smallies in the columbia river system around tri cities...

Seems any more people just want to blame the dams. But these same people I bet dont live or never have lived on a major salmon run river.... then seen it destroyed in 5 years If they did there would be singing a different tune...
Its always easy to blame growth, but growth isnt the problem the greed from indians are...
Indians know wether they deplete the salmon or not they are still going to get monies from the federal gov.

I am waiting for when they start blaming the cities for the destruction of thier elkherds.

Delw

 

[Delw]

Buzz.. I know nothing about BC and other places other than washington state. so I wont coment cause it would be just speculation...

As far as historically that was hundreds of years ago before the indians discover gill nets

and yes I can blame the indians for the destuction of the salmon populations cause I lived there and saw it first hand...
Like I said in the past the dams are a problem but not the major one.... its definatly in the top 5 with the indians being the top 1....'
Delw

 

[BuzzH]

Delw, it doesnt take 20 years to bring back a strong salmon fishery, its just doesnt.

The last several years, Washington, Oregon, and Idaho have had good salmon and steelhead returns. WA and OR almost always have enough fish to support the tribal take and the sport fishing. I fished the Cowlitz, Kalama, and Lewis River a couple years ago for cohos...plenty of fish...but I thought the Indians wiped them out...hmmmm????

Get over the Indian harvest, its going to happen and its a guranteed right that YOUR GOVERNMENT agreed to.

It isnt the reason for poor salmon runs, it just isnt, give me some proof. If it was you should be able to dig up some info. I can give you a whole boat load of info proving that dams are the number one reason for the declines of salmon on the Columbia. All you have to do is look at the pre-dam numbers and compare them to adult returns after the dams went in...its really that simple.

Question: How do Indians taking ADULT fish cause 95-99% mortality of smolt on the Columbia?

Oh, and the walleye and small-mouth are again a problem associated with the dams....

 

[Ithaca 37]

Del, Sorry, but Buzz is right. The problem isn't how many adult fish get caught or netted on their way back up the rivers, it's how many smolts make it to the ocean.