American prairie. What's the issue?

[elkduds]

I personally am not comfortable with foreign investment/contribution to take AMERICAN lands out of agricultural production.

How do you like unlimited, undisclosed foreign election contributions deciding US elections? Its called Citizens United, and the conservative SCOTUS made it the law of the land. American Prairie is a much better use of foreign $ on US soil IMO.

 

[Dougfirtree]

You can either take a gamble and maybe lose it or not and definitely lose it eventually. That's the same risks orchardist are running into here. The guys vacationing in mexico are taking risks, following the market trends, adapting to regulations, and vertically integrating. I mean, prime orchard land is going to 350k an acre. When I asked a very successful orchardist I was helping with some water right changes why he didn't convert it to homes, he said, if you know what you're doing apples always pay more in the long run. He'd gone to varieties, that were 1) trendy or 2) early to market.

Yup. I live in a hot spot for "new" farming. Over the last 15 years, there's been a huge influx of young farmers buying, leasing, begging land and many have been successful by thinking outside the box. CSA's galore, some of which are selling shares in NYC and will send a van down once a week to literally deliver veggies, dairt, meat, etc. to people's doors. You would chit if you saw what people in NYC will pay for good, small-farm raised food. Others have focused on value-added products. A local meat farm has a food truck that they operate at the local brewery. All sorts of people who otherwise wouldn't have will pay for their meat when it is served to them in a taco while they're having a great time with friends at the brewery listening to live music... A small dairt farm makes and packages their own yogurt and cheeses and sell them all over the place. People are falling over themselves to buy that yogurt (it's amazing). There's a lot of potential for those who will take the risk (and no doubt that easier to stomach when you're an idealistic 27 year old with no family history in the land).

That said, let's face it; a large percentege of the working family ranches in the west are doomed. They're just not going to make it in the modern world, for a number of reasons. I have plenty of empathy for those families, but right now, it's outweighed by my concern that much of what's left of the American prairie is going to be carved up for subdivisions, otherwise developed, or sold to a few wealthy individuals (or foreign countries). In this regard, APR seems like a godsend. I'd like to see other, similar programs set up in other states too.

 

[rogerthat]

Yup. I live in a hot spot for "new" farming. Over the last 15 years, there's been a huge influx of young farmers buying, leasing, begging land and many have been successful by thinking outside the box. CSA's galore, some of which are selling shares in NYC and will send a van down once a week to literally deliver veggies, dairt, meat, etc. to people's doors. You would chit if you saw what people in NYC will pay for good, small-farm raised food. Others have focused on value-added products. A local meat farm has a food truck that they operate at the local brewery. All sorts of people who otherwise wouldn't have will pay for their meat when it is served to them in a taco while they're having a great time with friends at the brewery listening to live music... A small dairt farm makes and packages their own yogurt and cheeses and sell them all over the place. People are falling over themselves to buy that yogurt (it's amazing). There's a lot of potential for those who will take the risk (and no doubt that easier to stomach when you're an idealistic 27 year old with no family history in the land).

That said, let's face it; a large percentege of the working family ranches in the west are doomed. They're just not going to make it in the modern world, for a number of reasons. I have plenty of empathy for those families, but right now, it's outweighed by my concern that much of what's left of the American prairie is going to be carved up for subdivisions, otherwise developed, or sold to a few wealthy individuals (or foreign countries). In this regard, APR seems like a godsend. I'd like to see other, similar programs set up in other states too.

I agree that development is the single greatest risk to the American prairie, heck, open spaces in general. I think what is tough is that the lands AP is buying up are not on the cusp of development but were working family ranches in some cases thus it’s hard to see this risk right now. If an organization were buying up lands in the eagle river valley or outskirts of Bozeman it would be an easy thing to see.

 

[Dougfirtree]

I agree that development is the single greatest risk to the American prairie, heck, open spaces in general. I think what is tough is that the lands AP is buying up are not on the cusp of development but were working family ranches in some cases thus it’s hard to see this risk right now. If an organization were buying up lands in the eagle river valley or outskirts of Bozeman it would be an easy thing to see.

I totally get your point, but it's soooo much more efficient and effective to do it earlier than where Bozeman is now! The writing is on the wall (at least the wall I'm looking at)...

 

[406dn]

There are reasons the APR is where it is. One, it is intermingled with public land. Two, it is relatively cheap.

Those two reasons allow them to stitch together a large chunk of land efficiently. You could almost say it's capitalism at work.

 

[rogerthat]

There are reasons the APR is where it is. One, it is intermingled with public land. Two, it is relatively cheap.

Those two reasons allow them to stitch together a large chunk of land efficiently. You could almost say it's capitalism at work.

And the largest donors aren’t looking to site their 10th mansion on any of the lands being purchased unlike the river valleys of Colorado or brozetopia, winter range be damned.

 

[mtmuley]

And the largest donors aren’t looking to site their 10th mansion on any of the lands being purchased unlike the river valleys of Colorado or brozetopia, winter range be damned.
Yep. Still have the mansions. But, got my Buffalo preserve too. mtmuley

 

[Eric Albus]

While you and I view the world from different perspectives, it continues to amaze me that farmers and ranchers never seem to realize that there is hardly an industry more subsidized with public dollars than production agriculture. Talk about a safety net. Really, it's not a sweetheart deal to get a blm grazing lease? Do you know anyone leasing private grazing land for that rate?

The extremes of each party do not often offer a solution that most can accept. The far right does not have the answers either.

I do hope this cold snap is not causing too much of a headache. I threw my horses extra hay this morning and pulled out some ice along the edges of their water bowl. I'll have to check the water a couple times a day the next couple of days.

BLM is a great deal, no doubt. While your staples from the grocery store may seem high priced, imagine what they be without the subsidies? Farm subsidies keep some operations viable that should've gone broke long ago. While I despise gov't subsidies I can look and see it may be a necessary evil.

The farmer is the direct beneficiary of the subsidy. Do remember this, the consumer is the indirect beneficiary, provided historically cheap food.

If all small operations were shut out of business where would that leave us? (there are more and more small operations leasing out at an unprecedented pace today)

Bigger and bigger family/corporate farms. What happens when the U.S. is farmed by 100-200 huge family/corporate operations, and a few foreign conglomerations? They will have the power to sit on grain crops until they get the price they demand. This will be a huge change from my lifetime and back to my great-great grandfathers of "taking what the elevator is offering". This is a very dangerous thing.

Just remember this, "he who controls the food, controls the people, and "Control the oil, and you control the nations". Without oil the food supply becomes near non-existent.

 

[Eric Albus]

If they all got $0.25 more per lb ($150 to $200 more per yearling), do we really think they will have a change of heart and not lease to an outfitter?
I suspect that economic horse has left the barn and getting it back in isn't going to happen until the value of elk and deer declines. To Ben's point, I would love to find solutions that benefit all, but I think it is more a sharing of pain at this point. That is why these threads end in mostly pointing out the conflicts.

Most of them aren't "leasing to an outfitter" they're leasing to heavy hitting businessmen, most of whom live in State. Near as anyone who can tell 2-3x's more land is leased by hunt clubs and individuals as outfitters. Just blame it on the outfitter, as we're the soft target.

 

[406dn]

BLM is a great deal, no doubt. While your staples from the grocery store may seem high priced, imagine what they be without the subsidies? Farm subsidies keep some operations viable that should've gone broke long ago. While I despise gov't subsidies I can look and see it may be a necessary evil.

The farmer is the direct beneficiary of the subsidy. Do remember this, the consumer is the indirect beneficiary, provided historically cheap food.

If all small operations were shut out of business where would that leave us? (there are more and more small operations leasing out at an unprecedented pace today)

Bigger and bigger family/corporate farms. What happens when the U.S. is farmed by 100-200 huge family/corporate operations, and a few foreign conglomerations? They will have the power to sit on grain crops until they get the price they demand. This will be a huge change from my lifetime and back to my great-great grandfathers of "taking what the elevator is offering". This is a very dangerous thing.

Just remember this, "he who controls the food, controls the people, and "Control the oil, and you control the nations". Without oil the food supply becomes near non-existent.

Generally speaking, I am accepting of the various farm programs. It is not my desire to see family farmers and ranchers driven off the land. As mentioned earlier in this thread, two of my uncles were farmers. I looked up to them mightily when growing up. They both farmed thru the great depression, that could not have been an easy task.

A deceased rancher friend opened his land to me, letting me have the run of his place to train my bird dogs on horseback. He made a go of it in a dry rocky area of Montana. How he did it amazes me. His daughters let me continue to have the run of the place.

My cousin who took over his father's farm told me more or less the same justification of farm subsidies that you offered. While it is not wrong per se, it does dodge the fact that the public subsidizes farmers and ranchers with government grazing leases heavily. Certainly far more help than a young person from a city gets with a college education.

 

[Eric Albus]

There are reasons the APR is where it is. One, it is intermingled with public land. Two, it is relatively cheap.

Those two reasons allow them to stitch together a large chunk of land efficiently. You could almost say it's capitalism at work.

4 reasons. It was/is the best stewarded intact grassland left in a very rural setting. It impacts only a few 100 people directly, and what is a few 100's life, and heritage matter? Not anything. I see handpicked rock piles every day, I know who made some of them. Then there are the rock piles I have no idea who the men were that labored to make them, they are lost to history. Just like the families living on this land today, in a generation or two nobody will remember or care.

As to the weather you asked about, it is the 4th reason nobody wants to stay/move here. 30 below with 30-35 mph winds (50+below wind chill), 30-36 inches of snow. Water lines, pump houses froze, tractors broke down, roads drifted shut. Unfortunately, it won't be long lived. Warms up Christmas day.

Maybe it'll get cold again drive all the carpetbaggers out of Eastern Montana.

 

[antlerradar]

To that point, everyone on HT respects @antlerradar

He's one of the few large land owners that continually impresses me with his knowledge of wildlife, the landscape, and the interplay between the two. And he doesn't seem to hate the public or our interests.

I have my faults, There is plenty were we would likely agree to disagree, But thank you for the kind words.
I would not think of my family's place as large, more middle of the road. What my great great grandfather had was big, but that has been divided many times.

 

[406dn]

4 reasons. It was/is the best stewarded intact grassland left in a very rural setting. It impacts only a few 100 people directly, and what is a few 100's life, and heritage matter? Not anything. I see handpicked rock piles every day, I know who made some of them. Then there are the rock piles I have no idea who the men were that labored to make them, they are lost to history. Just like the families living on this land today, in a generation or two nobody will remember or care.

As to the weather you asked about, it is the 4th reason nobody wants to stay/move here. 30 below with 30-35 mph winds (50+below wind chill), 30-36 inches of snow. Water lines, pump houses froze, tractors broke down, roads drifted shut. Unfortunately, it won't be long lived. Warms up Christmas day.

Maybe it'll get cold again drive all the carpetbaggers out of Eastern Montana.

Sounds like the North Dakota I grew up in...only it normally just stayed cold. After moving here, I told my dad on the phone one night, I knew I was moving west, but had no idea I'd moved so far south.

The winters in my part of Montana are a cake walk compared to what you deal with.

 

[rogerthat]

Most of them aren't "leasing to an outfitter" they're leasing to heavy hitting businessmen, most of whom live in State. Near as anyone who can tell 2-3x's more land is leased by hunt clubs and individuals as outfitters. Just blame it on the outfitter, as we're the soft target.

Yeah I’m not concerned about outfitters. Hunting clubs have way more money to blow than any outfitter ever will. The outfitters will be impacted by them as well. They are the next big loss of access facing Montanans but they are flying under the radar mostly right now.

 

[DFS]

When APR has visions to fix the areas that need help my check book is going to open. Western Montana guys telling us how to fix eastern Montana. That’s rich. Let’s fix some winter habitat in the mountains, it starts with a bulldozer.

 

[Potsie]

With the current system there's a small town of people all taking profit between those two end points.

A-f@cking-men.

-signed the guy that just recently extricated himself from a side gig.

#juiceaintworththesqueeze

 

[Hunting Wife]

I read, or maybe heard a podcast somewhere, that with ranch land prices such that they are these days, there are really only a few hundred people in this country with both the means, and desire, to purchase said lands at todays prices. That’s a pretty niche market. I don’t think that is the fault of the AP. And I don’t think cashing in while they can via a buyer with the means and desire is a fault of the rancher. But the days of the family ranch are numbered, no matter how you slice it. The writing is on the wall, and I think it is hopeful foresight, rather than ill-will towards todays ranchers, that make some of us value what AP is trying to do.

 

[TheTone]

I read, or maybe heard a podcast somewhere, that with ranch land prices such that they are these days, there are really only a few hundred people in this country with both the means, and desire, to purchase said lands at todays prices. That’s a pretty niche market. I don’t think that is the fault of the AP. And I don’t think cashing in while they can via a buyer with the means and desire is a fault of the rancher. But the days of the family ranch are numbered, no matter how you slice it. The writing is on the wall, and I think it is hopeful foresight, rather than ill-will towards todays ranchers, that make some of us value what AP is trying to do.

I’ve wondered for a while how would a young person even begin to get started in farming or ranching if they weren’t born into it or born into money. Land and equipment prices are so high that it’s a tremendous barrier for entry.

 

[Eric Albus]

Generally speaking, I am accepting of the various farm programs. It is not my desire to see family farmers and ranchers driven off the land. As mentioned earlier in this thread, two of my uncles were farmers. I looked up to them mightily when growing up. They both farmed thru the great depression, that could not have been an easy task.

A deceased rancher friend opened his land to me, letting me have the run of his place to train my bird dogs on horseback. He made a go of it in a dry rocky area of Montana. How he did it amazes me. His daughters let me continue to have the run of the place.

My cousin who took over his father's farm told me more or less the same justification of farm subsidies that you offered. While it is not wrong per se, it does dodge the fact that the public subsidizes farmers and ranchers with government grazing leases heavily. Certainly far more help than a young person from a city gets with a college education.

Govt subsidizes farmers heavy, the rancher less so.

It’s all about a cheap supply of food.

Keep the masses happy,cheap food and fuel, more $$ to spend on travel/recreation.

 

[Eric Albus]

I’ve wondered for a while how would a young person even begin to get started in farming or ranching if they weren’t born into it or born into money. Land and equipment prices are so high that it’s a tremendous barrier for entry.

It’s simple. There is basically no way. The entry barrier is to high.