Rancho Loco
Well-known member
Why wouldn't..
A: Someone use the .223 for practice/fun AND hunting..
B: Someone use the .243 for practice/fun AND hunting..
??
.223 rifle advice
- Thread starter RobG
- Start date
Why wouldn't..
A: Someone use the .223 for practice/fun AND hunting..
B: Someone use the .243 for practice/fun AND hunting..
??
RobG
Well-known member
"Someone" might do that, but Ben only needs the tiniest excuse to buy more guns.
Go with the Howa or Tikka T3 lite. Although for a budget rifle, I don't think you'd be disappointed in the American. The one I handled was impressive and 90% of the reports online I've seen from them are that they are unreasonably accurate with the right ammo.
I own 3 ruger rifles. I'll never buy another M77/Hawkeye again. I'm getting about 1 inch groups with my #1. The American is a completely different design than the M77 and is worth being a kids first hunting rifle, especially with a VX2 3x9.
I'd also see if you can get Sam behind the trigger of a 7mm-08 too. Recoil is minimal and it's a great cartridge if you're set on small bores.
Mthuntinfool
Member
I would go with a 22-250 instead of a 223 if you wanted to go that route, ammo is still reasonable, and with a quality 55 gr or 62 gr bullet they are good for killing deer out to 250-300 yards. better performance than a 223 and no recoil. I have a stevens 200 in 22-250, and had an identical one in 223, and they both shot extremely well. I can out-shoot many guys out to 600 yards with mine. just my 2 cents worth.
MinnesotaHunter
Well-known member
Rob,
If you are thinking of having your boy hunt deer with the .223, you probably want to find a rifle that comes with a 1 in 8" twist, so it can stabilize some of the heavier bullets available. I think the concensus is that anything over about 60grns you will want the faster twist. That being said Remington puts 1 in 12" barrels on their .223s, so these might not be best. I do know Howas come with a 1 in 8". I went with the Rem because I knew I would primarily be using it for practice and varmints, and pretty much exclusively shoot 50grn V-max out of it.
Good Luck!
If you are thinking of having your boy hunt deer with the .223, you probably want to find a rifle that comes with a 1 in 8" twist, so it can stabilize some of the heavier bullets available. I think the concensus is that anything over about 60grns you will want the faster twist. That being said Remington puts 1 in 12" barrels on their .223s, so these might not be best. I do know Howas come with a 1 in 8". I went with the Rem because I knew I would primarily be using it for practice and varmints, and pretty much exclusively shoot 50grn V-max out of it.
Good Luck!
Both of my children started with rimfres; and the summer before their first hunting season each probably shot a brick using open sites and a scope. Inexpensive, great way to learn site picture, proper hold, and most importantly proper trigger press. 223 is adequate for deer, but the 243, 250's and 7/08 are better.
RobG
Well-known member
The way things are going with this purchase pretty soon I'm going to need to know the best psychotherapist.
I wouldn't recommend a .223 as a hunting round, especially for children. But for fun it's fine. I'm also not going to condemn someone for hunting with a .223 either.
As I tell my wife, I only buy guns that are sound investments.
RobG
Well-known member
Good thing all guns make sounds.
Point Creep
Well-known member
Kimber Montana in.223. It's not junk or cheap but a fine rifle that cannot be grown out of. I often hunt with mine. 62 ttsx and 26.5gr of H335.
Rancho Loco
Well-known member
Deer can just about be knocked down dead with strong language.
People that know this, use the .223.
People that know this, use the .223.
Eric.MN
Well-known member
Curious what round people use for deer out of a .223? I was thinking I should take my .233 along for my antelope hunt in wy, just need a round 60gr +.
Fun gun to shoot an cheep factory ammo
Fun gun to shoot an cheep factory ammo
Formidilosus
Member
- Joined
- Nov 26, 2014
- Messages
- 32
Killing is all about hitting, and hitting is all about round count. Shooters (all of them) need lots and lots of ammo and they need it away from the bench. I kill deer every year with 223's and my friends and associates kill a bunch more.
Killing "power" is dependent upon, in order-
1) Placement
2) Bullet
And way down the list
3) Headstamp.
I can only surmise that those who think that a 223 with big game bullets is a poor or sub par choice for deer, haven't used that combo very much. I would rather use a full tilt 223 for my own hunting than a V8 with some spark plugs ripped out.....
A 62gr Federal Fusion recovered from an adult whitetail. Deer was quartering to, penetrated and broke the onside humerus, two ribs, lungs, liver, a couple more ribs and was caught by the skin on exit.
A light well balanced 223 will get shot on orders of magnitude more than anything else, which will only lead to good things once animals are involved.
Killing "power" is dependent upon, in order-
1) Placement
2) Bullet
And way down the list
3) Headstamp.
I can only surmise that those who think that a 223 with big game bullets is a poor or sub par choice for deer, haven't used that combo very much. I would rather use a full tilt 223 for my own hunting than a V8 with some spark plugs ripped out.....
A 62gr Federal Fusion recovered from an adult whitetail. Deer was quartering to, penetrated and broke the onside humerus, two ribs, lungs, liver, a couple more ribs and was caught by the skin on exit.
A light well balanced 223 will get shot on orders of magnitude more than anything else, which will only lead to good things once animals are involved.
Formidilosus
Member
- Joined
- Nov 26, 2014
- Messages
- 32
62gr Federal Fusions, 70gr Barnes TSX, 62gr SOST, Hornady 60gr VMAX, 77gr SMK's, Nosler 77gr CC's, a few different varieties of 55 and 60gr softpoints, 75gr AMAX and Hornady 75gr OTM all work.
In general staying with the Federal Fusions, Barnes TSX/TTSX's, Nosler 64gr Barrier, or any of the other ammo/bullets specifically designed for game is a safe bet.
Rancho Loco
Well-known member
65 gr. GK has been the easiest bullet I've ever got working in my .223's.. Accurate as heck, and a deer killer for sure.
I still need to test the 70 gr. VLD's..
I still need to test the 70 gr. VLD's..
MinnesotaHunter
Well-known member
It is getting a little deep in here.
What is the argument you are trying to make? .223 is adequate for deer sized game? Point taken. I would whole heartedly agree that more deer sized game is wounded and not recovered each year due to poor shot placement v. inadequate cartridge/bullet selection, most likely caused by lack of practice, irresponsible decision making, and bad fundamentals.
The argument that energy doesn't matter, and only placement and bullet construction is ridiculous. The whole point of a well constructed bullet is that it transfers the stored energy into the animals vital organs in the form of hydrostatic shock. Energy is what kills, the bullet it just the delivery method. The "headstamp" is what puts the energy into the bullet. You need all parts of the equation.
Don't get so caught up in rationalizing your actions that your own actions that you miss out on reality.
What is the argument you are trying to make? .223 is adequate for deer sized game? Point taken. I would whole heartedly agree that more deer sized game is wounded and not recovered each year due to poor shot placement v. inadequate cartridge/bullet selection, most likely caused by lack of practice, irresponsible decision making, and bad fundamentals.
The argument that energy doesn't matter, and only placement and bullet construction is ridiculous. The whole point of a well constructed bullet is that it transfers the stored energy into the animals vital organs in the form of hydrostatic shock. Energy is what kills, the bullet it just the delivery method. The "headstamp" is what puts the energy into the bullet. You need all parts of the equation.
Don't get so caught up in rationalizing your actions that your own actions that you miss out on reality.
Formidilosus
Member
- Joined
- Nov 26, 2014
- Messages
- 32
The reality is that I understand terminal ballistics quite well. "Energy", which I take to mean ft-lbs, is not a wounding mechanism and has no relevance in this discussion.
Tissue is destroyed by two wounding mechanisms. They are referred to as the permanent crush cavity and temporary stretch cavity. The tissue that the projectile physically touches that is permanently crushed is the permanent crush cavity and the tissue surrounding the projectile’s path that is temporarily stretched is the temporary stretch cavity.
The permanent cavity is the simply the "hole" left by the projectile and fragments as they pass through. The temporary stretch cavity is the space that is left as the tissue surrounding the bullets path is pushed aside.
Of course an easy example of how "energy" doesn't apply as it relates to bullets and wounding is that a 180gr solid non expanding bullet at 3,000fps has the exact same "energy" as a 180gr varmint bullet at 3,000fps, and yet ft-lbs of energy tells us nothing about how either will perform in animals.
Terminal ballistics is a known, measurable, varifiable and repeatable thing yet most seem to want to hang on to completely disproven ideas such as "ft-lbs of energy" and "knockdown power".
The wound channel of those bullets I mentioned is more than sufficient for deer, and in some cases rivel the wound channel of much larger cartridges and bullets.
Tissue is destroyed by two wounding mechanisms. They are referred to as the permanent crush cavity and temporary stretch cavity. The tissue that the projectile physically touches that is permanently crushed is the permanent crush cavity and the tissue surrounding the projectile’s path that is temporarily stretched is the temporary stretch cavity.
The permanent cavity is the simply the "hole" left by the projectile and fragments as they pass through. The temporary stretch cavity is the space that is left as the tissue surrounding the bullets path is pushed aside.
Of course an easy example of how "energy" doesn't apply as it relates to bullets and wounding is that a 180gr solid non expanding bullet at 3,000fps has the exact same "energy" as a 180gr varmint bullet at 3,000fps, and yet ft-lbs of energy tells us nothing about how either will perform in animals.
Terminal ballistics is a known, measurable, varifiable and repeatable thing yet most seem to want to hang on to completely disproven ideas such as "ft-lbs of energy" and "knockdown power".
The wound channel of those bullets I mentioned is more than sufficient for deer, and in some cases rivel the wound channel of much larger cartridges and bullets.
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