Zinke Proponent of BALANCED, Not Extremist Leadership.

[BuzzH]

Perhaps the environmental conditions wouldn't be as extreme with more management? They may still happen but not to the catastrophic effect that they did?

Now environmental conditions can be improved with more management?

Care to explain that with some peer-reviewed science?

 

[375H&H]

There I changed it...sorry don't have time to respond with layers upon layers of documents as I am too busy looking for my next straw. You will probably disagree with me anyway so oh well.

 

[Deleted member 20812]

Perhaps the environmental conditions wouldn't have had as extreme a result with more management? They may still happen but not to the catastrophic effect that they did?

I'm very dubious it would have made a difference. All that said, to reiterate what I said earlier, I fully support very intensive management along the WUI. But, to think you can apply that across all USFS lands and prevent catastrophic wildfire is completely folly in my opinion.

 

[Gerald Martin]

Regarding elk, feed, security cover, roads, and survival in NW Montana... Feed is not a problem here. They have plenty to eat in both logged and unlogged areas (probably more in logged areas). What affects survival is areas of restricted access where they can roam without encountering a lot of hunters during MT's long general season. Roads/access equals more elk being killed. Low road density/thick cover/steep terrain equals more bulls surviving the season.

There is a reason there are more elk just 10-15 miles away in the F.S. than on private timber lands and feed is not it. In this part of the country, security and difficulty of access in the form of either terrain, closures or private land is a major factor in elk numbers.

Just a guess, but I'm pretty sure I'd be right that the same locals who want to push for more access for logging would be the same locals who would complain over hunting season road closures, who would place all the blame for the decline of the bull/cow ratio on the fangs of the nasty non-native wolf.

To be clear, I am not anti-logging. I don't think anyone on this thread is. But logging is not going to stop lightning strikes on dry grounds from starting fires. Increased logging is not going to revitalize struggling rural economies at current market prices. Extreme anti-logging enviros are not the cause of that economic reality not matter how much a person despises their tactics.

Zinke's support for a struggling industry isn't going to revitalize our rural communities, but his support of policies that lead toward privatization or increased development of public lands is going to harm wildlife and our interests as public land hunters.

I give him a tepid, "Atta boy" for supporting timber projects. I give him a resounding "BOOOO!" for his coziness with the anti-public/pro transfer crowd and their policies.

 

[Deleted member 20812]

Because, after all, everything is an absolute in life.....

 

[BigHornRam]

Serious question and not meant to be a smart ass. How in the world is this dense creek stand going to be fire resistant? Is the reason it didn't burn more an artifact of the relative humidity and/or moisture content of the fuels? I've seen plenty of cool, north facing draws burn like a sumbitch. Ride over Headquarters Pass and you'll see what I am referencing.

No offense, but I'm skeptical a drainage like this acts as a fire break under extreme environmental conditions as were found in Montana last year. Maybe that's not what you're trying to say?

Trees are still green, ground is wet, humidity level is considerably higher than adjacent thinned stand with with recent underburn. Excellent firebreak IMO. Also a good place to find a bull elk in bow season.

 

[BuzzH]

Trees are still green, ground is wet, humidity level is considerably higher than adjacent thinned stand with with recent underburn. Excellent firebreak IMO. Also a good place to find a bull elk in bow season.

How long until the massive profits are made logging that stand?

Looks like a great place to produce some profitable timber...I mean, nothing screams profit like over-stocked pecker pole larch and sub-alpine fir with branches to the ground...

 

[BigHornRam]

How long until the massive profits are made logging that stand?

Looks like a great place to produce some profitable timber...I mean, nothing screams profit like over-stocked pecker pole larch and sub-alpine fir with branches to the ground...

Now buzz is all about profit, funny!
Montana has laws requarding logging around streams that trump profit.

http://leg.mt.gov/bills/mca_toc/77_5_3.htm

 

[onpoint]

Knock off all the forest mgmnt. B.S. and cut to the chase. You want profit and fire prevention? Bring back the robber barons.....:hump:

 

[BuzzH]

Now buzz is all about profit, funny!
Montana has laws requarding logging around streams that trump profit.

http://leg.mt.gov/bills/mca_toc/77_5_3.htm

How does that apply to your pictures? Cant cut trees but can punch a road?

That picture isn't close to an smz or there wouldn't be a road there...for starters. Oh, and don't point out the willow bush as proof its an smz...its salix scouleriana, upland willow.

 

[BigHornRam]

How does that apply to your pictures? Cant cut trees but can punch a road?

That picture isn't close to an smz or there wouldn't be a road there...for starters. Oh, and don't point out the willow bush as proof its an smz...its salix scouleriana, upland willow.

Don't know what you are smoking buzz, but it is definitely an smz.

 

[onpoint]

SMZ - streamside management zone.

In the case anyone unschooled (?) is watching this for recreational purposes..................

 

[375H&H]

Pretty sure you're painting with a mighty broad brush...Managing a forest isn't free and I'd argue that realizing a profit from intensive management might work in some places, but there's a lot of acres where the margin is well past paper thin.

Lets just cut to the chase, road building alone on a lot of federal ground would make a profit unachievable. That's before we even start talking about weed control, thinning, applying periodic low intensity fire, etc. etc. etc.

Fair to mention that forest type/species, rotation ages, fuel prices, distance to mills, softwood markets, BMP's,...just to name a few, all impact profitability.

Throw in some severe fire weather, probably more severe than 1910...and I don't give a chit if its managed or not, its going to burn. In those conditions I've seen fires rip through clearcuts and not even slow down...and that was from my personal experience as a wildland fire fighter from 1987-1995.

So what if a fire rips through a clearcut? A lot less damage than if it rips through acres and acres of beetle kill and burns so hot the ground is scorched and does not recover for years. Oh and there are plenty of roads already in place or gated that could be used on millions of acres of western timberlands so the road cost argument is not valid. Having a forest burn is ok, and healthy frankly, but it is also ok if we try and manage things a little bit so that they aren't as catastrophic like this last year. Oh, and anyone who is concerned about air quality/carbon emissions from coal power plants should have driven through Montana, Wyoming, Idaho, Washington, North Dakota, and Canada this last summer during the fires and tried to breathe or see any scenery. Then tell me what creates poor air quality.

 

[BuzzH]

Don't know what you are smoking buzz, but it is definitely an smz.

So what was the fine for punching the road through the smz that's in your pictures?

For the record, what do you suppose the disturbance was, since its more than obvious that stand is in very early succession? Fire or clearcut?

 

[375H&H]

So what was the fine for punching the road through the smz that's in your pictures?

For the record, what do you suppose the disturbance was, since its more than obvious that stand is in very early succession? Fire or clearcut?

I literally just did a 5 minute google search and found out that you CAN put roads into SMZ areas...or use existing roads. You just need to follow a few rules about building in those areas. For someone that knows as much as you Buzz I am surprised you didn't know that.

 

[BuzzH]

So what if a fire rips through a clearcut? A lot less damage than if it rips through acres and acres of beetle kill and burns so hot the ground is scorched and does not recover for years. Oh and there are plenty of roads already in place or gated that could be used on millions of acres of western timberlands so the road cost argument is not valid. Having a forest burn is ok, and healthy frankly, but it is also ok if we try and manage things a little bit so that they aren't as catastrophic like this last year. Oh, and anyone who is concerned about air quality/carbon emissions from coal power plants should have driven through Montana, Wyoming, Idaho, Washington, North Dakota, and Canada this last summer during the fires and tried to breathe or see any scenery. Then tell me what creates poor air quality.

Lots of holes in your post...for starters, since you're talking beetle kill, your fire theory and scorching the ground is a nice talking point to the uninformed, too bad its not reality...that fans vs. players thing again.

The largest areas of beetle kill are primarily lodgepole pines that have evolved through stand replacing disturbance for oh, lets just make it easy, and say the last 5 thousand years give or take a thousand or two. Meaning, that its either beetle kill or fire or a combination that regenerates lodgepole stands.

I've looked at many, many thousands of acres of burns in the last 31 years I've been in the profession, and what you're claiming just aint reality...by a long damn shot. Lodgepole NEED fire...fire frequencies of 200-300 years aren't uncommon and its stand replacing fires/disturbance that pushed them back to early succession. Perfect example of a monoculture.

Road costs never go away...and is a valid argument, whether it be maintaining the road, decommissioning the road, or having to improve the road to get back into the stands to manage them. To think otherwise is ridiculous.

Carry on...

I agree so what if a fire rips through a clearcut...just not reality that intensively managed forests make them anything close to fire-proof, up to, and including clearcuts.

 

[BuzzH]

I literally just did a 5 minute google search and found out that you CAN put roads into SMZ areas...or use existing roads. You just need to follow a few rules about building in those areas. For someone that knows as much as you Buzz I am surprised you didn't know that.

Sure you can, in some situations, just not seeing the qualifiers in BHR's pictures...I've marked more than my share of smz's...you?

 

[Straight Arrow]

...manage things a little bit so that they aren't as catastrophic like this last year.

375H&H, in your opinion, how many projects and just how many millions or thousands of acres would need to be logged to decrease the wildfire impacts from "catastrophic" to something less severe? Are there historic examples of wildfire mitigation by timber harvest over large landscapes? Are those "plenty of roads" in the proper places to access the many projects you advocate? Are there enough operating mills to process all that timber? How does that affect lumber prices and the timber industry? As someone not well-versed in aspects of timber extraction and the relationship to forest fires, those seem like sensible questions.

BHR, are you and Terry Anderson concluding that if that L&C National Forest project had been completed, then the nearby forest fire would have been averted?

BHR, you linked the article for some reason. 'Still waiting for an answer to explain your opinion concerning this particular theory of wildfire mitigation.

 

[375H&H]

Lots of holes in your post...for starters, since you're talking beetle kill, your fire theory and scorching the ground is a nice talking point to the uninformed, too bad its not reality...that fans vs. players thing again.

The largest areas of beetle kill are primarily lodgepole pines that have evolved through stand replacing disturbance for oh, lets just make it easy, and say the last 5 thousand years give or take a thousand or two. Meaning, that its either beetle kill or fire or a combination that regenerates lodgepole stands.

I've looked at many, many thousands of acres of burns in the last 31 years I've been in the profession, and what you're claiming just aint reality...by a long damn shot. Lodgepole NEED fire...fire frequencies of 200-300 years aren't uncommon and its stand replacing fires/disturbance that pushed them back to early succession. Perfect example of a monoculture.

Road costs never go away...and is a valid argument, whether it be maintaining the road, decommissioning the road, or having to improve the road to get back into the stands to manage them. To think otherwise is ridiculous.

Carry on...

I agree so what if a fire rips through a clearcut...just not reality that intensively managed forests make them anything close to fire-proof, up to, and including clearcuts.

I am not saying logging makes things fire proof at all. What I am saying is that logging will, more often than not, reduce the severity of fires and allow the fires to be managed easier so that towns and houses are not burned up. To me that seems like a good thing and if that is not true then explain how it is not. Are fires a natural part of the ecosystem and should be allowed to happen in some sort, of course, but so are wolves and we still need to manage them. Fires are good for forests, but I doubt even you will agree that millions of acres burning at once is best for our forests, wildlife, and public lands.

Clearcuts also regenerate lodgepole and are more manageable than catastrophic fires, but if you want a 1million acre national forest to burn to the ground and spend millions fighting it, then ok. What I am advocating for is a combination of management but I am not really sure what you are advocating for. Are you against logging, for logging, want pristine national forests that have no human impact and for western states to make absolutely no money for their schools? Or do you want a yarder or valmet or timbco harvester on every treed mountainside? I honestly cannot tell from your posts.

 

[BigHornRam]

So what was the fine for punching the road through the smz that's in your pictures?

For the record, what do you suppose the disturbance was, since its more than obvious that stand is in very early succession? Fire or clearcut?

Fire.