Ollin Magnetic Digiscoping System

Yellowstone, wolves, & snomachines, the facts!!

Sako7STW

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I am not posting this to start a big ol uproar. A friend posted this on the Snowest forum and it was very informative and I thought I would post it for my friends to see here at Moosie's place:

Thu January 05, 2006 2:51 PM


Last summer I submitted a comment letter during the Winter Use Scoping for the new EIS for Yellowstone National Park. A small portion of my comment letter is included below. So I asked two questions regarding how many animals were killed by wolves and how many by snowmobiles. I received a response today.

Do you think you will ever read this in any major paper? Ya right.

If you ever need to quote this figure, it was provided by Michael J. Yochim, Ph.D., National Park Service. I give the guy credit for actually replying, even though it is 6 months later, and for actually giving me some valuable information. I guoted 1800, but I guess I was a little low.

Some of my previous comments:

Since more than 8300 automobiles, motorcycles, pick-up trucks, busses, recreational vehicles and commercial trucks entered YNP on a daily basis between April 16th, and November 7th, 2004, I fail to see what sort of impact less than 1000 snowmobiles a day would have on the environment or wildlife. Snowmobiles do not put unreasonable stress on wildlife. Studies have shown that wildlife are more stressed and move further away from approaching humans on foot (cross-country skiing) than they do when approached by motorized vehicles (snowmobiles).

I would argue that wildlife is seriously impacted by wolves, not snowmobiles, since the re-introduction of 14 wolves to the park in 1995. Current estimates are that there are now over 200 wolves. Ed Bangs, wolf recovery coordinator for the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, estimated in 1999 that “About 160 adult wolves will kill and eat approximately 1,800 big game animals a year”.

How many animals were killed by wolves in YNP during 2004? I realize you can not give me an exact number, but I would like an educated guess.

How many animals were killed by snowmobiles in YNP during 2004?

Response from Michael J. Yochim, Ph.d., National Park Service:

Parkwide we estimate 2200-2700 ungulates (mostly elk, but also including moose, deer, bighorn sheep, pronghorn antelope, and bison) are killed by wolves per year. This is out of an estimated 30,000-35,000 elk that use YNP sometime during the year. Prior to the beginning of mandatory commercial guiding for all snowmobilers, we lost 1 or 2 animals due to snowmobiles per year. Since 2003, when guiding was instituted, there have been no wildlife fatalities. Thanks for your interest. Michael J. Yochim, Ph.D. National Park Service


0 - ungulates killed by snowmobile in Yellowstone (2003, 2004, 2005)
73 - ungulates were killed by automobiles in Yellowstone (2005 only)
2200-2700 - estimate of ungulates killed by wolves each year

Ungulates - mostly elk, but also including moose, deer, bighorn sheep, pronghorn antelope, and bison.

|oo
 
Wow, what a brilliant hypothesis your friend came up with. The guy is a genius. The rest of the world thought that the damage snowmobiles were doing in YNP was due to emissions, and your buddy went out an proved that snowmobiles aren't predators.....

Guessing that your buddy is a snowmobiler that has been exposed to too much Carbon Monoxide inside the snowmobile trailer? Perhaps he should open a door or at least the roof vent when he starts all the machines up.

Let me guess, his next hypothesis has to do with the emissions of the wolves in the park????
 
Great post proving the apposite view guner/sybil... :rolleyes:

I thought you were supposed to be a lawyer or some thing???

I bet your rebuttal debate would win the hearts and minds of juries every where… :eek: ;) hump
 
Cheese,

Then you agree with the buddy's post to the Snowmobile forum, that somehow it is related to the issue with Snowmobiles in YNP? Could you explain, or are you just content with everybody knowing you are clueless?
 
Ahh... You can't ask questions until you answer some, thats how the games played guner/sybil.... ;)

So, it doesn't matter if I wrote the book on the subject or don't have any idea about it...

You will never know until you finish your turn... :D
 
Cheese,

I am pretty sure you didn't write the book, as even with a new box of crayons, you would still be ill-equipped to write a book on any subject, Absolut -ley....
 
Ahh... You can't ask questions until you answer some, thats how the games played guner/sybil....
Seems like a fair enough request. What was the question? :confused:

I thought you were supposed to be a lawyer or some thing???
Was this it or is from another post?

'chsr, you are always asking sybil ;) to answer your questions first. Fair enough. Ask him three pertainant questions and if he answers all of them you can answer his.

Guess I will put you on the spot gun...errrr...Jose. :D

Let's finish the "turn-thing" and move along.
 
Well Craig…

I will start with one that was well over a year ago, but was never answered...

guner/sybil will remember it, you will also, now that I mention it...

I know this should be water under the bridge because of time and forgetfulness, but I haven't seen any of the hundreds of questions put to him/her answered since, so this is where it stems from...

I'm also just bringing it up because you asked, other wise it would have stayed buried and only guner/sybil would have remembered... ;)

So guner/sybil...

How did I stab Moosie in the back???

The reason it was asked is guner/sybil made the accusation with nothing to back it up, nor has he/she/it ever came up with where ever it was he/she/it invented it, only figuring that some one could be hurt, embarrassed or character assassination by any wild allegations tossed out, such as the (D) Senators do in these inquisitions towards any of the judges put up for nomination for the supreme court...

I’m assuming, because I don’t know you that well, but well enough to know your character, if some one accused you of the same, you would want an answer, seeing as it would be a flat out lie against you.

Just remember guner/sybil, there are two more questions coming after this one, but I really doubt if any answer will-be forthcoming, nor will it end here, he/she/it doesn’t want it to...

Thats what you get when you have a White Striped Yellow Bellie in your midst!!!

So, it is guner/sybil that should be frowned upon, he is the one that brought this on.

You know me well enough by my posting habits over the years that I only jump on and act like an asshole for a reason. If not, watch how I post, there is a method to my madness… ;) :)
 
ELKCHSR said:
You know me well enough by my posting habits over the years that I only jump on and act like an asshole for a reason. :)

Genetics is such a good reason for much of your behaviour. :cool:

Cheese, to answer your Question #1, go back and read your posts from June/July of 04. It was cumulative.

Next question.
 
Look at that, your bringing genetics into this again!!! ;)

So… You going to be calling your next batch of kid’s grandchildren, or sons and daughters???

Besides, you know neither my mother nor my father, or even if I ever talk to them, or were raised by them, so how would you know any thing about my genetics???

And by your reasoning, should I take it your personality matches your mother and father (that accounts some what for the split personality) ??? :)

Did you have to wear dresses when you were growing up???

Now, let’s see what your take on “Cumulative” is, quit beating around your bush and just spit it out, or just swallow...

There isn't any thing in your "Cumulative" that is relevant to the comment...

You don't have a thing that would show I stated, or did any thing for that matter to prove what you spouted; to any one on this board, or in any of my posts...

Not even in a side note to some one else...

Matter of fact, I’ve never talked bad about Moosie to any one, because he isn't deserving of such and he has never given reason for it…

There were pissing matches at the time going on between him and “Others”, but not I.

So, shit for brains... Bring it on and show your evidence, quit making every one think you have something...

It may work in your court room, but not here... :)
 
next question........you didnt answer the first question.
do you have something about the accusation made? give it up.

lawyer my ass, does fetching coffee and licking envelopes make someone a lawyer today?.....i call bullshit on dipshit being a lawyer!
 
Since more than 8300 automobiles, motorcycles, pick-up trucks, busses, recreational vehicles and commercial trucks entered YNP on a daily basis between April 16th, and November 7th, 2004, I fail to see what sort of impact less than 1000 snowmobiles a day would have on the environment or wildlife.

Your buddy it a real tool when it comes to analysis. 1,000 snowmobiles a day have a much greater impact upon both the environment and wildlife. Did your buddy spend any time learing about the stresses animals are under during winter in YNP? He didn't mention the impact of groomed trails on Bison and elk migrations nor did he approach the subject of noise pollution or mention the fact that 2 Cycle snowmobile engines produce far more air pollutants vs. the 8,300 vehicles entering the park in the summer.

Snowmobiles may not have killed any critters in 2003, 2004 and 2005 but they severly impact the survival of wintering animals in YNP. In addition to his analysis perhaps he can explain why so many of his brethen consider illegal riding in YNP to be appropriate and without impact. I don't really care whether you and gunner/jose lock horns but to post this "analysis" as "fact" is pretty goofy. There is data supporting the negative impact of snowmobiles in the park going back to at least 1981.

I have rented snowmobiles and rode through the park several times. My wife and I have spent a couple of very enjoyable days riding in the Park and staying in West Yellowstone. I am not saying winter recreation shouldn't be allowed or that snowmobiles are evil but they have a big impact upon already stressed animals.

The snowmobile vs. wolf example used is a stupid way to look at the issue and is not a valid comparison. The fact is that the government, like it or not, was required by law to attempt return endangered wolves to their native range. There is no such requirement to allow winter snowmobile access to YNP. Doesn't matter if wolves eat every last ungulate in the park they take priority over snowmobiles. Stupid analysis and stupid conculsion.

Nemont


February 23, 2005 05-07

ILLEGAL SNOWMOBILE ACTIVITY IN
YELLOWSTONE NATIONAL PARK
Over a three-day period from February 18-20, 2005, National Park Service and United States Forest Service rangers on routine border patrol arrested 17 individuals for illegally entering Yellowstone National Park's backcountry on snowmobiles. During these patrols, dozens of other snowmobilers were stopped at Yellowstone's boundary and prevented from illegally entering the park.

The snowmobilers entered Yellowstone off-road, in a remote section of the park along the western boundary, some passing directly next to florescent orange boundary markers and placards clearly identifying the park boundary. One of the offenders entered the park illegally on a snowmobile again on February 19 after being cited on February 18 for the same offense. All offenders were issued citations that require mandatory appearances in front of U.S. Magistrate Judge Stephen E. Cole.

In recent years, park rangers have noticed an increase in illegal snowmobile use along the park’s western boundary. In an effort to curtail this illegal and damaging activity, rangers have increased boundary patrols in Yellowstone's backcountry.

Winter visitors to the park are reminded that the use of oversnow vehicles off designated routes is prohibited. Recreational oversnow vehicle travel in Yellowstone National Park is allowed only by guided snowmobile tours or by commercial snowcoaches between the hours of 7:00 a.m. and 9:00 p.m.
 
Nemont,

Nice post, and funny to see the parade of Idiots (Cheese, JB, WH) who can't see the bullchit that was posted by the buddy who did the "facts" about YNP....

I am surprised Cheese didn't come up with an equal study of "facts" proving that snowmobiles in YNP don't hurt the Bull Trout population nearly as bad as his fishing "techniques" hurt the endangered/threatened species.

Cheese,
Nice to see you didn't have any more questions. Now please keep your posts limited to topics you understand (should be next to none.)
 
I am not sure why he would post something so idiotic and then say, "I am not posting this to start a big ol uproar". Perhaps if he posted it as an opinion rather then fact.

It is a little like saying Al Qaeda hasn't killed any Americans on U.S. soil in 2003, 2004 and 2005 but motor vehicles have killed nearly 45,000 American during that time therefore there is no problem with Al Qaeda.

Nemont
 
JoseCuervo said:
Nemont,

Nice post, and funny to see the parade of Idiots (Cheese, JB, WH) who can't see the bullchit that was posted by the buddy who did the "facts" about YNP....

Alright, leave WH out of it. He just got you on a spelling error and didn't judge the "letter". :D
 
guner/sybil... Your such a shallow little man slut...

I do have one thing to add (well, more than one :) )...

Since there is 1000 snowmobiles in the park a day, and the total square mile coverage is 3,470 square miles, (I know they can't go every where and are more than likely packed in a little tighter than that) equates out to 3.47 miles per snowmobile...

So in perspective, there really isn't that much impact on an overall picture.

More perspective:

A square mile contains 27,878,400 square feet (Feat for guner/sybil)

27,878,400 x 3.47 = 96,738,048 sq ft of area per snowmobile

I don't have a snowmobile to measure, but if you oversize it, that is still only about 40 sq ft per machine, sitting in an area that is averaged out to 96,738,048 sq ft. when in the park

I think they have enough room to handle 1000 snowmobiles a day.

Or you could simply say 1 snowmobile per 3.47 square miles for easier reference.

Even if you put them all on 10% of the ground of Yellowstone, it’s still a fairly small coverage area overall, just makes them a little more visible to those who have problems seeing any thing man made (except that which they poses and got to the park in themselves).

Big numbers are easy to come by if you know how to look at some thing; it is easier to come up with far larger numbers when utilizing Mother Earth than what man can come up with. ;)

I am surprised Cheese didn't come up with an equal study of "facts" proving that snowmobiles in YNP don't hurt the Bull Trout population nearly as bad as his fishing "techniques" hurt the endangered/threatened species.

Cheese,
Nice to see you didn't have any more questions. Now please keep your posts limited to topics you understand (should be next to none.)

Come on now guner/sybil, you know better than that, no matter how much you like to put your head in the sand, or rather your ass and smell yourself.

I don’t post much for you when asked, because you still haven’t earned any answers, well much more than another spanking any way… :)

ILLEGAL SNOWMOBILE ACTIVITY IN
YELLOWSTONE NATIONAL PARK

Now this is the whole crux of the argument, it isn't those staying on trails, its those abusing the system.

An easy way to fix the problem is to put harsher penalties on those breaking the law, including confiscation of their ride, or put up a Jack fence.

This still won't make it end, but will detour a few more, especially those now with out a ride. ;)

In recent years, park rangers have noticed an increase in illegal snowmobile use along the park’s western boundary. In an effort to curtail this illegal and damaging activity, rangers have increased boundary patrols in Yellowstone's backcountry.

This is direct proof that the penalties for abuse need to be increased.

I would go out on a limb here and bet that the magic "1000" a day or at least the very largest portion of them, don't walk away at the end of the day needing to send the magistrate a check.

Here’s another one on pollution utilizing the same numbers…

I understand that a snowmobile produces a certain amount of (not sure the actual number) cubic feet of pollutants per gallon of fuel utilized (I remember seeing that as a big thing awhile back)

Getting back to numbers

Let’s assume that the pollutants fill a space of only 50 feet in height

The 1000 snowmobiles would have to produce 4,837,075,900,000 cubic feet before they were able to fill the park whole park with pollution.

This is a number we are all comfortable with saying, but it isn't any thing that only about .001% of the population can comprehend.

I will assume though, with all the micro climates involved in the park, wind currents will carry most of the pollutants away to some where the Earth can deal with thm and there will be some areas that will retain smog and make eyes water.

Or if there happens to be an inversion hanging over the park, it would become noticeable for a time until the wind carried it away.

One thing we all need to understand. The cats out of the bag
This is a world renowned park, one of the most famous and most visited in the world.

What would the park look like if it hadn’t been designated?

Would we even have elk or buffalo if the park hadn’t been created?

Yes, it’s worth saving, but it also has to be open for “the public” of the world to visit and managed accordingly to that reality.

I think this is plenty long enough for the time being, well at least until a couple of you catch your breath and have a come back.

One thing to mention, guner/sybil shit for brains need not reply until he answers the first question I posed (well, unless there’s a little intelligence past the third grade involved).

P.S. I hope you didn’t think this would work???

You're (your) right (write), I (eye) apolgise (apoligize).

And again, your point is??? What are you fishing for or thinking you will gain, besides a little woody to make a mess on your key board with???
 

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