Would you buy points for MSG for your 12 year old son?

[npaden]

I'm trying to decide if I should start buying points for Moose, Sheep and Goat for my 12 year old son.

Was actually contemplating applying for MSG in Wyoming with the deadline coming up Thursday, but am leaning against that now as I don't think he is quite mature enough for a sheep or goat hunt yet for sure. So now just trying to decide whether to buy points or not. This will then roll into Colorado, Montana, Nevada, etc. and several of those don't have an option to buy points in the summer so I guess I need to decide fairly soon.

I'm applying him for elk, deer, antelope in most western states and I think those are all tags that he can use the points in the future either waiting until he is middle aged on some of the premium units or burning them as a young adult on some of the lower tier units.

MSG doesn't seem like as sure of a thing though. Starting at 12 it may still take 30 or 40 or even 50+ years to draw a sheep tag. I'm willing to invest the first 10 years of that but not sure it would be something he would be as passionate about to continue to build those points until they would be used. That's a LOT of money and time.

I've already applied him in Utah for sheep and goat. I didn't apply him for moose there. They are only giving out like 3 nonresident moose tags and there are thousands of people with points ahead of him already so I just didn't think it would be worth it for moose there. Wyoming, Colorado and Montana all have better long term options on Moose for him.

I have the money to build him points, but if it is pointless like Utah moose seems to be I really don't want to just waste a bunch of money. I also don't want to get him into a no mans land where he feels obligated to continue to pile up points for several more decades because he already has 10 years of points accumulated for him by the time he gets 22.

I could pile up that money for 10 years of applications and give it to him as a gift and he might appreciate that a lot more at 22 years old than a pile of points in a bunch of western states. I would say I could save that up and give it as a gift of a guided hunt in Alaska or something like that but that sounds like something I might end up doing anyway regardless of whether I pile up some points for him.

This is something I think several of you guys have dealt with and 10 years ago it was an awesome deal to get some head starts on building points, but it is a daunting task looking at this now.

Oh well, If anyone has any input I'm open for discussion. Thought making this a poll would maybe get some more responses as well.

Thanks, Nathan

 

[BrentD]

No I would not. Low odds that the system will even be intact then.

If it takes 20-50 yrs to draw a tag, it's not hunting anymore. I don't know what it is, but it is not what I associate with hunting anyway.

 

[Backcountry Hunter 2]

I'm 10 years away from this very decision for my daughter who will turn 2 in September. If faced with the decision today, I would only get points in our home state of Colorado for the big 3. I'd also buy her points in WY for elk, deer, and goats. I don't have a ton of money, and the odds are better being a resident.

 

[ImBillT]

I hope the point systems don’t hold up that long. At least preference points, and squaring or cubing bonus points, which basically just makes them preference points.

I haven’t done the math, but if the money adds up to enough to buy a private moose, sheep or goat tag then all the applications are a pretty unwise expenditure. You could spend all the money and come away with nothing, or you could let it gain interest and when the time comes, either he’ll want to buy the hunt or he’ll be really glad you gave him the money instead. It’s definitely a lot of money when you consider the price increases that will probably happen over the next ten years and the interest that money could draw. That’s not even considering the possibility you mentioned of him having to apply for another 10, 20 or 30yrs before he actually draws the tag. His price is going to skyrocket once he’s paying adult prices.

I voted mutual funds because you asked about MSG and are concerned about how interested your son actually is in hunting the big three. I would, and intend to, purchase points for species with higher odds. The big three are a pretty big gamble, as are point systems. If he wants to hunt them when he’s an adult there are other ways, and there are random drawings. For elk and deer there are a few a glory tags that he’d have a great chance at while young and healthy that he could probably draw with little to no input on his part and very few adult priced apps. If a state abandoned points, you’d probably have a year or two of advanced notice and could “burn” his points on something that’s still pretty good. Also, the odds of preference points going away in ten years is far lower than in 20-40yrs.

 

[Big Fin]

My son is 28. Sixteen years ago I was faced with that decision, though the popularity of multi-state applications was not nearly what it is today. Even at that time, I could see what was needed if I wanted him to have a remote chance at some of the hunts I desired. I knew it would cost money. So, I budgeted and prioritized to make it work.

Today, if I was in the same situation, I would do the same thing. The odds are even lower for someone 12 years old today than those odds from 16 years ago. But, the odds are better for that 12 year old today than they would be if they didn't start applying or if they started applying ten years from now when they decide they want to get in the game.

I decided to do it until my son got through college, then he would see if hunting was still something he desired. It is something he enjoys, so I am glad I paid for those ten years of points until he got out of high school and college. I know that might not work for everyone, but in a family like ours where hunting and fishing are given huge budget priority, it worked.

 

[BuzzH]

I'll provide 2 answers, the optimistic side and the reality/not so optimistic side.

The optimist in me says to buy the points. That said, I would probably focus on the species that are easier to draw and there are a lot of them. Take advantage of elk, deer, pronghorn, black bear and the youth seasons that the states offer. Hunt often and take advantage of the youth fees. Build points in some states for deer, elk, pronghorn as an investment in future hunts in some of the better units.

For moose, sheep, things like that I would invest in states that only offer a chance at a tag in a random portion of the draw. States like AZ and NV make sense...Montana, Wyoming probably not so much considering the price to apply, the years behind, and the dismal draw odds even for the upper portion of the point holders.

Another reason to build points, you never know how or if the point systems will change over time. Maybe some states will eventually cap the number of points, meaning younger hunters can catch up and have better odds, for an example.

The optimistic side of me says to build points and apply, you never know.

Now for the reality/not so optimistic side. Based on the trends of the last 20-25 years I would expect populations of moose, sheep, and goat to continue to decline like they have been for a long while. It would be nice to look into the future and see how things will go, but based on all available data we have currently, I don't see a bright future for those species for all kinds of reasons. Many of those reasons will not be addressed, or in some cases, are just flat too late to be addressed. So, assuming the populations of moose, sheep and goat continue down the crapper...probably not a wise investment. Unfortunately this is what I see in the future, hope I'm wrong.

I seem to find more and more each year that I enjoy hunting the stuff I can actually draw and hunt versus the tedious pursuit of applying for multiple states for those long odds tags like sheep, moose, goat, etc.

That said, I'm fortunate that I'm in an OK place with points across the West, so I'll stay the course. Just tough to imagine the hopeless feeling it must be for those just getting started on the ground floor. My odds are still crap after applying for some states like Montana, for nearly 4 decades.

I've started building points for my nephews in a few of the states that make sense. More importantly though, I make sure to get them lots of opportunities at easy to draw tags like pronghorn, deer, and elk and spend time hunting with them. For my $$$/time that makes the most sense, actually hunting with them versus chasing tags they likely wont ever draw.

 

[rmyoung1]

Facing the same thing with my three sons. The out-of-state application gets more and more expensive each year. The odds are horrible for the Big 3. And multiple kids makes it very, very, very expensive. I'm picking and choosing wisely (I hope) and staying away from the sheep, moose, goat points for my sons. Elk, deer, antelope points are more reasonably priced and should provide us with a mountain of memories for the dollars invested. Unfortunately, for the big 3, you are most likely not going to get much return on that investment. I guess I'm going with the more-hunting-opportunities-is-better strategy when it comes to my boys. I doubt I'll regret it.

 

[npaden]

Thanks for the input. I for sure am applying for elk/deer/antelope for most states for him. Really looking forward to going on some good hunts with him when I'm in my early 60's and he is early to mid 20's. Too bad we don't have a crystal ball to see the future populations on MSG though.

Anyone have a link to where someone updates the points that are going to be required for bighorn sheep in Wyoming every few years?

I can find the list of how many points everyone has but then they did some math showing how many tags are available to nonresidents each year and how long it would take to churn through those points. I can't remember if they actually put in some estimated mortality of point holders into the equation or if that was just discussed in the thread.

 

[BuzzH]

npaden,

Nonresidents are currently getting about 50 sheep tags a year...if that helps any.

Another thing to consider with Wyoming, people are really starting to grumble about the percentage of sheep tags NR's get currently (25%). I think there will be changes sooner or later to that allocation as the resource continues to shrink. Same with moose.

 

[jtm307]

I will buy my kids points in WY only because the cost is so low for residents. The money I would spend on points elsewhere can be spent on hunts outside the lower 48.

 

[npaden]

I found one of the posts I was remembering. I thought it was here, but turned out it was on MM.

http://www.monstermuleys.info/dcforum/DCForumID8/5885.html

According to that guys math, someone with 10 sheep points in Wyoming in 2016 should draw a tag in 2048 if they continue to apply each year. He didn't even do the math for the folks with less than 10 points as it ramps up very quickly taking 4 to 5 years to get through each point after about 13 points and fewer. That doesn't factor in the odds of actually drawing a tag in the random and with the increase to $150 for a point I think a few more folks might have dropped out, but as BuzzH mentioned, the chance of nonresidents still drawing 25%ish of the tags is likely to drop down to 10% which would send it spiraling the other direction.

The only thing in the favor of a 12 year old is that they would hopefully outlive most of the guys holding a lot of points right now even if the people in the point pool ahead of them don't ever end up drawing a tag.

Let's say he draws the tag in 2060. 40 X $150 = $6,000 based on the current price of a point. If he applies in the random draw every year then the 2.5% credit card fee is going to be $2,320 X 2.5% = $58 X 40 = $2,320 in fees, plus the cost of the license $2,320 (again I'm sure that will be much higher by then) so all total you are in for $10,640 absolute minimum. That's still cheaper than any bighorn hunt that I know of right now.

He could get lucky and draw in the random before then which would save even more. Of course with a decrease in the nonresident quota and the way things are going, he might not even be allowed to hunt bighorns 40 years from now even if there are huntable populations.

Maybe I should just take my rational thinking and just buy some points and go on with life. I'm sure I've spent money on stupider things in my life.

 

[ImBillT]

So $10,640 for the sheep hunt sounds reasonable, and if you told me I could have that or cash, I’d take the hunt and never tell my wife that cash was an option. There are a few things missing though.

A) is Wyoming the only state you’ll be doing it in, and are you going to stick to a single species?
B) price increase(as mentioned) and interest accrual.

$10k in today’s dollars and prices could easily be $20k after price increases alone. Putting the equivalent of those fees into mutual funds each year for forty-one years would likely result in closer to $60k(back of the napkin guessing could be way off).That’s just Wyoming sheep. Obviously if you adjust things for inflation the picture isn’t nearly as grim, and you’d only be footing the bill for roughly ten years rather than the whole forty-two. I’d add up the price of every state and species that you intend to do it in, multiply by ten years, calculate the expected interest and ask myself if that’s an amount of money that he’ll really need or if you can afford to be semi-frivolous with it. Also, although the single state and species wouldn’t buy a sheep hunt, would the combination of all of them buy a sheep hunt? I would trade ten MSG points in every state to eliminate my student loans and never think twice. I’m not sure all those apps would pay them off, but at $6k/year in payments I could probably buy a sheep hunt in fewer than forty one years.

 

[Bullshot]

I think for most people, a big three hunt is not realistically going to happen. So although it's a great dream to have, it's not necessarily a wise dream to chase on someone else's behalf, even your son. If he comes of age and really wants to do it, he will hopefully have other options in AK or Canada, or Russia or elsewhere maybe... and yes it will cost him a lot of money. But that will be his choice. You, on the other hand, are trying to cultivate a love of hunting and give him a leg up where it makes sense. I can think of nothing better than helping him obtain points for elk, deer, pronghorn, and other more easily obtained tags, allowing him to hunt with you often and all over. A gift of points he can never likely use is no gift at all and really will probably cause more sadness and frustration over it than joy. I occasionally throw in for the random draws on moose or sheep and it is actually pretty fun to dream of hitting the lottery. On the other hand, one of the greatest frustrations of my hunting life is the burden having two decades of points in CO for elk..... and yet probably never getting to go on the one hunt that started it all for me. I have given up a lot of other good hunts over the years to amass those points, and for what, really?

 

[ashersdad]

I have two sons that are 12 and 14. After doing my research and math, I decided it just wasn't worth putting in for points for MSG. I do put them in for deer, elk, and antelope in several states and we usually get a few decent hunts every Fall. I didn't have anyone putting me in for points as a youth and when I decided I wanted to hunt MSG, I figured a way financially to make it happen. I figure my boys can do the same if they so desire. I am saving $ on a monthly basis for them that they could use for this if they wanted. I do however put them in for MSG in states that don't do points.

As others have stated, I don't want my kids "saddled" with points that they feel they have to keep buying. Heck, I'm in my 40's and have points in states where I already feel like that...

 

[ImBillT]

Most of my posts have been against it, but that’s from more of practical standpoint and the point of view of someone who has to take a dollar from one pot to put it into another and already spends a lot more money on hunting than is really justifiable(for myself at this time). On the other hand, dreams don’t really have price tags. If you’re just asking about Wyoming sheep for $150 a year for a maximum of ten years and it’s not going to prevent you from meeting some real need of his then why not? Don’t make a big deal out of the points. In a few years it may become apparent that a sheep hunt really isn’t going to rate very high on his list and you’re not really in that deep. Or in a few years you could figure out that he wants to go sheep hunting and he really glad that you did it.

This isn’t going to be an option for most people, and from a practicality standpoint it’s pretty absurd, but a far fetched option for you with regards to making sure that you give him a gift and not a burden would be this. Buy the Wyoming sheep tag each year. Put the exact same dollar amount into mutual funds at the same time. In ten years, give your son the choice. Cash or points. If he takes the cash it cost you double, but in the end $1500-$2000 in sheep points spread over ten years is not going to change your life, and you will A) not be saddling him with points to maintain, and B) not be giving him nothing. On the other hand, if he takes the points, you have some extra cash and you’ll be really glad that you didn’t listen to me and skip the points.

 

[Auburnpack]

I am sure thing will change regarding points. As Randy has stated, rules were made to favor the old farts. Eventually there will be new rule makers and they will most likely be years behind in the point totals. I am sure they will do something to favor themselves.

 

[BrentD]

Eventually, these will all become once-in-a-lifetime hunts.

 

[Bugle 'Em In]

I put my kids in for MSG in MT (cheap since we live here) and AZ. Will stick with Deer, Elk & Antelope w/ the other states.

 

[mdhunter]

I started this ten plus years ago with my boys and to date I have only antelope hunted with one in NM (where I didn't need points )

Kids grow up, tags don't get drawn at key times when they could go, college starts so they cant go, graduate school starts so they can't go...blah blah blah

I am hoping next year my oldest will finally be in a position to draw some hunts I have invested so much time and money in. Ask me in a few years I might have a different opinion but would I start down the same track with what I know now? Probably not. Save your cash and buy a great hunt somewhere when it really works time wise.

 

[ImBillT]

Eventually, these will all become once-in-a-lifetime hunts.

They basically already are just based on odds. I have no problem letting someone who has already hunted them throw their money in the pot. If they draw again, so be it. In a “once in a lifetime” situation, you are only taking a few people per year out of the pool. Eliminating them really isn’t improving the odds enough to matter.

I will likely never hunt a sheep or a goat. It’s not possible for me via preference points, and if it was, my budget and physical condition dictate that my money would be better spent on tags I can draw much sooner. For an extra $10-$15 I’ll throw my name in pot in a couple bonus point states where I’m already applying for deer and elk. I hope to hunt moose at least once. It’ll probably have to be AK or Canada.