wingman1
Active member
There are laws that have been broken in fact several. BLM is turning the cheek.
Wilks brothers true colors are shining through.....
- Thread starter wingman1
- Start date
There are laws that have been broken in fact several. BLM is turning the cheek.
Jelf
New member
I make my living working with online maps and property lines. Hopefully the following info will shed light.
1. Online Gmap4 map with federal boundaries
One of my projects is Gmap4 which is an enhanced Google map viewer that I developed. I have posted about it before here in the OYOA forum. The following link:
http://www.mappingsupport.com/p/gma...name=Meridians&layers=0,4,13&transparent=true
Use the sliding control near the upper left corner of the map and zoom in all the way. Next, click the scale symbol near the lower right corner of the map to change from meters to feet.
Assuming the data is 100 accurate (and of course we know it is not) this encroachment appears to be a bit less than 15 feet.
This online map is not a survey. The federal boundaries on the map come from GIS data hosted on a server. If we had actual survey data to work with, no doubt these boundary lines would shift either a little or a lot. (For those of you that are GIS savvy, Gmap4 can display ESRI MapServer tiles and similar tile data available via WMS.)
If you zoom the map out, you will see different colors of federal land. The map legend explaining the different colors is part of the following link. You will need to scroll down to #24.
Map legend: http://wildfire.cr.usgs.gov/arcgis/rest/services/geomac_dyn/MapServer/legend
2. Has anyone asked BLM for their data?
Post 254 (page 11) says BLM did “ground visits using a survey-grade GPS” and “no encroachment was found”.
That statement means BLM has survey-grade latitude longitude coordinates for (A) one or more points along the new fencing and roads and (B) nearby section corners and quarter corners. BLM absolutely needs both sets of data in order to conclude there is no encroachment.
How many locations did BLM check?
Did they check the spots that are most likely encroachments?
If anyone can obtain that data from BLM, then you could put that data into a file and display it with Gmap4. You could also put that data in a GPX file, load it into your GPS and visit those areas the next time you fly in to any of these BLM parcels that the BLM visited.
If BLM refuses to provide the data in response to a polite request, then you could ask again via a FOIA request. Here is the president’s executive order on open data and the followup memo from OMB:
Executive order: http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press...-and-machine-readable-new-default-government-
OMB memo: http://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/default/files/omb/memoranda/2013/m-13-13.pdf
BTW, the official surveys conducted by BLM (and its predecessor GLO) are online at
http://www.glorecords.blm.gov/search/default.aspx?searchTabIndex=0&searchByTypeIndex=1
I check T12N R22E (includes Wingman’s coordinate in section 13) but there was no useful data.
3. Easy ways to improve consumer grade GPS accuracy
I am completely baffled why almost no useful information is written on this subject. (Listen up you outdoor writers.) Since I tell my clients how to find survey stakes with their GPS, I had to learn how to get the best accuracy from a consumer GPS. I researched that topic and concluded that the three most important factors are:
* Time of day
* WAAS lock
* GLONASS
Time of day. There are websites that predict the times during a day when there will be good and bad satellite constellations. Do your GPS work during the times when the satellites are in a good constellation. You get better accuracy for free.
WAAS lock. If your GPS (a) cannot maintain a lock on a WAAS satellite and (b) does not support GLONASS, then your accuracy is about 50 feet. You can easily lose lock on the WAAS satellite serving your area in heavy forest or if that satellite is blocked by high terrain. The WAAS satellites are stationary and the correction data they provide loses usefulness rather quickly.
GLONASS. This term refers to the Russian GPS satellites. Some GPSs can get data from both the USA and Russian satellites. More data = better accuracy even when you lose lock on the WAAS satellite that covers your area. If you are considering buying a GPS, I recommend that you get one that supports GLONASS.
Here is a list of the Garmin GPSs that support GLONASS:
https://support.garmin.com/support/searchSupport/case.faces?caseId={a3bcf150-1fa1-11e1-73d0-000000000000}
BTW, the iPhone 4s and later support GLONASS as do many android phones.
And here is a pdf file I wrote that has some more information and details on how anyone can get the best accuracy possible from their GPS.
http://www.propertylinemaps.com/p/pdf_tips_for_using_a_gps.pdf
Whew! Sorry for the long post but hopefully this info will prove to be useful. And if anyone would like to know more about Gmap4, the homepage has a FAQ, examples, quick start info (on the Help page), my contact info and more to quickly get you up to speed.
Gmap4 default map: http://www.mappingsupport.com/p/gmap4.php
Gmap4 homepage: http://www.mappingsupport.com/p/gmap4.html
Joseph, the Gmap4 guy
Redmond, WA
1. Online Gmap4 map with federal boundaries
One of my projects is Gmap4 which is an enhanced Google map viewer that I developed. I have posted about it before here in the OYOA forum. The following link:
Starts Gmap4
Displays the Google aerial
Displays an overlay showing land owned by the feds
Is centered at the coordinates Wingman supplied at post 150 on page 6 (46 48.101 -108 53.285).
Displays the Google aerial
Displays an overlay showing land owned by the feds
Is centered at the coordinates Wingman supplied at post 150 on page 6 (46 48.101 -108 53.285).
http://www.mappingsupport.com/p/gma...name=Meridians&layers=0,4,13&transparent=true
Use the sliding control near the upper left corner of the map and zoom in all the way. Next, click the scale symbol near the lower right corner of the map to change from meters to feet.
Assuming the data is 100 accurate (and of course we know it is not) this encroachment appears to be a bit less than 15 feet.
This online map is not a survey. The federal boundaries on the map come from GIS data hosted on a server. If we had actual survey data to work with, no doubt these boundary lines would shift either a little or a lot. (For those of you that are GIS savvy, Gmap4 can display ESRI MapServer tiles and similar tile data available via WMS.)
If you zoom the map out, you will see different colors of federal land. The map legend explaining the different colors is part of the following link. You will need to scroll down to #24.
Map legend: http://wildfire.cr.usgs.gov/arcgis/rest/services/geomac_dyn/MapServer/legend
2. Has anyone asked BLM for their data?
Post 254 (page 11) says BLM did “ground visits using a survey-grade GPS” and “no encroachment was found”.
That statement means BLM has survey-grade latitude longitude coordinates for (A) one or more points along the new fencing and roads and (B) nearby section corners and quarter corners. BLM absolutely needs both sets of data in order to conclude there is no encroachment.
How many locations did BLM check?
Did they check the spots that are most likely encroachments?
If anyone can obtain that data from BLM, then you could put that data into a file and display it with Gmap4. You could also put that data in a GPX file, load it into your GPS and visit those areas the next time you fly in to any of these BLM parcels that the BLM visited.
If BLM refuses to provide the data in response to a polite request, then you could ask again via a FOIA request. Here is the president’s executive order on open data and the followup memo from OMB:
Executive order: http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press...-and-machine-readable-new-default-government-
OMB memo: http://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/default/files/omb/memoranda/2013/m-13-13.pdf
BTW, the official surveys conducted by BLM (and its predecessor GLO) are online at
http://www.glorecords.blm.gov/search/default.aspx?searchTabIndex=0&searchByTypeIndex=1
I check T12N R22E (includes Wingman’s coordinate in section 13) but there was no useful data.
3. Easy ways to improve consumer grade GPS accuracy
I am completely baffled why almost no useful information is written on this subject. (Listen up you outdoor writers.) Since I tell my clients how to find survey stakes with their GPS, I had to learn how to get the best accuracy from a consumer GPS. I researched that topic and concluded that the three most important factors are:
* Time of day
* WAAS lock
* GLONASS
Time of day. There are websites that predict the times during a day when there will be good and bad satellite constellations. Do your GPS work during the times when the satellites are in a good constellation. You get better accuracy for free.
WAAS lock. If your GPS (a) cannot maintain a lock on a WAAS satellite and (b) does not support GLONASS, then your accuracy is about 50 feet. You can easily lose lock on the WAAS satellite serving your area in heavy forest or if that satellite is blocked by high terrain. The WAAS satellites are stationary and the correction data they provide loses usefulness rather quickly.
GLONASS. This term refers to the Russian GPS satellites. Some GPSs can get data from both the USA and Russian satellites. More data = better accuracy even when you lose lock on the WAAS satellite that covers your area. If you are considering buying a GPS, I recommend that you get one that supports GLONASS.
Here is a list of the Garmin GPSs that support GLONASS:
https://support.garmin.com/support/searchSupport/case.faces?caseId={a3bcf150-1fa1-11e1-73d0-000000000000}
BTW, the iPhone 4s and later support GLONASS as do many android phones.
And here is a pdf file I wrote that has some more information and details on how anyone can get the best accuracy possible from their GPS.
http://www.propertylinemaps.com/p/pdf_tips_for_using_a_gps.pdf
Whew! Sorry for the long post but hopefully this info will prove to be useful. And if anyone would like to know more about Gmap4, the homepage has a FAQ, examples, quick start info (on the Help page), my contact info and more to quickly get you up to speed.
Gmap4 default map: http://www.mappingsupport.com/p/gmap4.php
Gmap4 homepage: http://www.mappingsupport.com/p/gmap4.html
Joseph, the Gmap4 guy
Redmond, WA
Here is a pic of a tree the D8 Cat plowed over that was about 30 feet off the road on the state land. I'm not sure why he did it. It didn't look like there was any need for it. There was also 2 other trees the same size he did it to also. We only walked that section of road for about a quarter mile and saw a couple more spots were he drove it off the road 10 or 15 feet.
Attachments
bigskyblueman
Member
Perhaps a spot for a guard tower. I suspect there is more to this project than just a fence.
wingman1
Active member
They were not to the state section yet as of early September. Looks like more of the same. I believe the majority of the fence is on is on the line but that doesn't give them the right to plow all their garbage on the public side of the fence.
Did you make it to the gap where the fence is way off?
I heard you guys had a good time irregardless of what was happening with the fence. Please post your bulls on this thread.
RobG
Well-known member
Good info G4map guy - thanks.
rg
rg
RobG
Well-known member
Is PLWA, MWF or ?? going to get this data? They should be updating us on what their plans are. It is pointless to rely on pictures of GPS units using the Cadastral data as their credibility has been eliminated.
Jelf
New member
And if a FOIA request is needed to get the BLM data, see if you can get the Billings Gazette to file that FOIA request. After all, that paper ran a story that said everything was OK.
Joseph
Joseph
Hey wing.
They made it to the SW corner of the state land with the CAT as of last Thursday. Then they stopped and drove the CAT all the way around to the north side. I assume they are going to start again out on the north east side somewhere.
We didn't make it down to the gap where the fence was on public. Seemed like the fence was on private the places we were but they pushed trees onto the public from what my gps said in places.
It doesn't take long to build that road around there. I think that fence will be done by the time riffle season opens.
They made it to the SW corner of the state land with the CAT as of last Thursday. Then they stopped and drove the CAT all the way around to the north side. I assume they are going to start again out on the north east side somewhere.
We didn't make it down to the gap where the fence was on public. Seemed like the fence was on private the places we were but they pushed trees onto the public from what my gps said in places.
It doesn't take long to build that road around there. I think that fence will be done by the time riffle season opens.
katqanna
Well-known member
Rob, I have already been working with PLWA (which I am a member of), getting the handbook and those quotes, as well as the Unlawful Inclosures and the United States v. Lawrence. I sent the link to this thread so they could see the pics. They are already sending their opening salvo statement to the BLM.
Jeff, I file FOIA's all the time to get my data. I will do that today.
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Point Creep
Well-known member
A true circus event: circling aircraft, enforcement folks from various agencies on heavy patrol, pissed off landowners disrupting stuff as much as legally possible, mobs of hunters - exited to kill an NBar bull elk based on hot tips from the internet/TV, photographs of the days' hunt includes bulldozers, campers, GPSs, aircraft, and on-line Gazette articles about the 4 mile chunk you're hunting, and the ominous lawsuits coming.
psinclair
Well-known member
Damn, I knew grandpa should have homesteaded that 160 up there.....
We got some sore losers on here 
Sounds like folks got excited thinking they were catching the big bad landowners doing something bad, found out Santa isnt real because they didnt get the football they were hoping for from the BLM and now are crying like little kids that lost the game
Reminds me of Democrats.
Sounds like folks got excited thinking they were catching the big bad landowners doing something bad, found out Santa isnt real because they didnt get the football they were hoping for from the BLM and now are crying like little kids that lost the game
Reminds me of Democrats.
Zach
Well-known member
The irony is there is a push for more government controlled lands, then when the government responds like this it's a surprise?
roadhunter
Banned
- Joined
- Jul 28, 2013
- Messages
- 714
Dont you dare act like the federal government isn't the best at managing land.
According to Ben all they need is more money to do a better job.
On an even funnier note I was out on a federal NWR yesterday. They are in desperate need of some conservation work but have no $ because they spent all their money on a brand new HQ building that was not needed. Guess who is stepping in to pay for the entire project including all engineering, design work, etc..... Yep, the state is paying for a fairly large scale conservation project on federal land. Imagine that.
Point Creep
Well-known member
Had that little chunk of BLM been state land, it would have been sold off a long time ago - just like all the inholdings of state within Ted Turner's places years ago. He got the good stuff that was land locked, we got the crap stuff that's great for growing cactus and productive anthills.
