Wife got her first bull!!

[Sako7STW]

I wrote this up for Liberty Optics to use on thier site so please excuse all the optcs talk but at the same time, It is all the truth:

In September I contacted Scott at Liberty Optics concerning spotting scopes. After some convincing as I was convinced on the Zeiss, I placed an order for the Kowa Prominar TSN-884. The price was unbeatable, and trust me I tried to see if I could find a better price. There was NOWHERE that would beat his price or even match it. Kowa was currently out of stock and the date was nearing for us to leave on our Elk hunt. My wife Amy, and my father Randy both had any-elk tags for one of the better draw areas here in WY. I own a Nikon 20-45 x 60mm Field Scope 3 ED spotter that we had used in the area in years past. It is a excellent scope but we needed more power and better low light viewing as the big boys don’t show up till its about dark and then disappear once the sun hits in the mornings.

Scott assured me that Kowa was getting in a shipment and felt that there would be no problem getting my scope in time. He went as far as even offering that for some reason it wasn’t here he would send me a scope of near equal quality to use. I wasn’t going to be without a spotting scope for this hunt. If that is not superb customer service, I don’t know what is!

One week before we were to leave I decided to buy my wife some binoculars as well. It was to be her first Elk hunt and I wanted her set up. Scott again, after some convincing as was looking more at the big names, convinced me to buy her some Vortex Viper 10x42’s with some Bino-buddies. Without fail, he got them to me with 3 days to spare. Again, customer service at its finest. He was right, They are truly the most superb binoculars I have ever seen in that price range.

Sure enough 2 days before I was to leave town to begin 5 days of preseason scouting, the Kowa arrived! I was about to be put to the test.

During the 5 days of scouting, I used the Kowa and Amy’s Vipers. We saw more Elk than we ever have in the years prior. I know it sounds like a sales pitch, but it was definitely due to having far better optics on hand than we had in the past. This included one of the biggest bulls I have ever seen in person. This bruiser came up out of a bottom after I cow called on him. We had heard him bugling for 2 days prior but he would not come out of the trees for nothing. He was not seen again after that day. I was able to get some pictures and video of him by holding my camera up to the Kowa. It was very hard to do as I am a chronic shaker and the bull kept moving so I had to adjust the spotter every time he got out of view. I included a few pics to show but please, these do not represent the Kowa’s ability at all. I will be ordering a digi-scoping setup for this scope soon as I hope to go back and get some better pics and video of this spectacular bull in his winter range. Maybe I will even get lucky enough to get his sheds!

Opening Day arrived and we were in the Elk. We had my brother on a high point watching with the Kowa for the big boys and we tried to get in positions to get on them. My bro has always had a hard time using spotters but he had zero issues with the Kowa! These Elk are sneaky buggers! They would circle us every time. Finally on the second day of the hunt we knew where a few herds and some straggler groups had moved into. My Dad and Brother took Amy and were going to set her up to look over a area we knew they used to move through. As they were standing there trying to figure out where exactly to place her, a bunch of cows moved out across the very opening they were in. Amy got set up for the shot. Finally the herd bull came out. She downed him.

He is a beautiful 5x6 that has some fantastic mass. He has more mass than both my Dads 6 point bulls and my bro’s 6 point bull they have got in the past. In the pictures, compare the bulls bases to Amy’s leg! I am extremely proud of her. We had seen this bull during scouting trying to make more little elk LOL. I wish I would have got video of him then.

We hunted for another week trying to get my Dad into a big boy and nothing seamed to work in our favor. Finally on the last day we had to hunt, Dad shot a smaller 5x5 for meat in the freezer for them and my brother to enjoy.

We attribute the success of this hunt to using the spot and stalk type of technique of hunting. This kind of hunting is impossible without using high quality optics. The Kowa Prominar TSN-884 is without a doubt one of the finest spotting scopes in the world! It performed flawlessly in our hunt. With its fine focus as well as fast focus it is easy to use and fast to get a clear picture. Compared to other scopes I have used I often found myself using the fast focus and thinking I had it well focused only to then use the fine focus and be amazed at how much better yet the clarity would get. Truly AMAZING!!!!

As for the Vortex Viper 10x42. They are a very very very good binocular. Amy spotted many elk with them before any of the boys could. I had the same experience with them in the times I used them. I asked Amy what she thought of them afterwards and she said,” I don’t know what to say. They worked really well.” I guess that’s what matters right? I highly suggest the Bino-Buddies. They make using your bino’s and carrying them so much more simple and accessable. These are a great product and I plan to add a pair of the 10x50 Vipers to my optics arsenal as well as my Dad and Brother plan to get some as well because they were equally impressed. You can bet, we will be ordering them from Scott at Liberty Optics. He now has some life long customers in us!

THANKS SCOTT!!!

Sincerely,


Todd, Amy, Randy, and Erik Jones

 

[Sako7STW]

A few more pics of Amy's bull and one of my Dad's.

 

[Wyodeerhunter]

Congrats to your wife on the nice bull. That is a pretty good bull for the unit.

Thank you for also driving your 4 wheelers off the road. That area has a RAMPANT problem with atv abuse and I see that you, your wife and Liberty optics contribute to it. I will make sure I never buy any of the products you tried so horribly to endorse in your post.

Now I expect for the reply post that says " I was just barely off the main road". Go right ahead. If it makes you sleep better at night then go ahead and type it.

Thank you for the post. It reminded me to make sure I have the correct phone numbers to turn in people who are riding offroad when I am in that area next week. Even though it doesn't do any good at least I know at the end of the day I turned in the bastards destroying our public land.

 

[indian larry]

good looking bull.......im guessing by the next time i go back to wyoming chances are looking like there wont be a square inch of that land that hasnt been run over by a wheeler....sad seeing people that call wyoming "home" messing it up for everyone

 

[Wyodeerhunter]

Larry,
Thank you for taking me away from that horrible movie to tell me about this post.

Everyone out there, the movie "There will be Blood" was not a good choice. It's 3 hours of my life I will never get back. Kinda like how Sako7mm mags 4 wheeler tracks will never go away. The next generation will see the results of his choice of ethics.

What did that elk score? Score doesn't matter when it wasn't even fair chase in the first place.

 

[Wyodeerhunter]

Well here is a pic from the other side of the butte that is behind your wife in the pictures. I'm sure you know where thats at. You know what I like about my picture over yours though? We hiked for our trophy, even if its just a year old small elk shed. Heck if you look closely in the pic you can even see our trucks parked on the road.

I have been going out to that country since I was 6 years old. I remember seeing a lot of quality bulls for many years. I remember going out shed hunting and being able to find 40 elk sheds in a single draw. The reason there were quality bulls and lots of sheds? Because people were not willing to hike into some of those deep cedar choked canyons. But like everything in life nothing good can last. Atv's started to become popular and it seems like the quality started to go down. We begin to see atv tracks while we were out looking for sheds. Now there are more people than ever out there driving through those cedars looking for sheds, arrowheads and "hunting" elk and deer. Now I like to chuckle when I see the pics like yours through the spotter of what has now become a "good" bull for the area. I chuckle because you atv riders have done it to yourself. Keep it up. You will ruin a place and move on to the next. You have pushed guys like me into the wilderness areas. I don't complain though. I sure do enjoy listening to the woods while I'm out there. You probably do not listen to the woods. Its a little hard to over the roar of your 4 wheeler.

I would love to see a study done on sage grouse in areas where there is rampant atv abuse. A lot of the nesting areas for the sage grouse are also areas where the elk and deer have wintered because the brush is healthy. This last spring we saw atvs riding through the deep brush during the period the sage grouse where on their nests. There were birds flying everywhere. Its amazing to see guys grid thicks spots like that on their 4 wheelers with the big wheel kits. Wonder how many eggs go unhatched because of this? It would be interesting to know. Maybe it isn't a factor, but maybe it is.........

 

[Sako7STW]

LMAO. You are a a real butt licker! First you need to get your dang facts streight. The wheelers are on a old 2 track road that goes up to the end of the clearing we were in. As far as it being away from a main road, LMAO there is no main road in the area any closer than 10 miles from where we were. Since you know the exact spot where we were you would know that already. BUT the area is a limited access area allowing ATV's on any given existing road. We were on a existing road dumb a$$! We were perfectly legal. So go ahead, turn us in. I will be more than happy to take them to the EXACT spot where the elk was and show them how we got there. BTW, your picture is NOT of the same canyon. I have spent three months out of the past 3 years there, I know it upside down and backwards.

Secondly. My family hunted horse back for over 30 years in the high Wyoming range. After an accident at work, my father can no longer ride a horse as he cant bend his ankle to fit in a stirrup yet alone climb onto a horse. Nor can he hike as again, his ankle will not bend allowing him to climb or drop down a hill. He is restricted to hunting either in a vehicle or on a ATV. So you can take your tree hugging babble bullshiz and stuff it. If it means riding an ATV perfectly legal so I can extend the time allowed to hunt with my father longer, by God I am going to do it. Rather you like it or not. If you think Horses do less damage than a wheeler does to an area, check out a trail after it has rained and a horse has been on it. The 12" deep holes from thier hooves will still be there after it dries. Dont even begin to try and tell me that isnt the case because anyone who has been on a horse in the high country will know thats exactly the way it is.

Third, you have no idea who you are talking to. I am avid ATV and off road enthusiast. I know better than anyone that if you abuse an area, you lose the use of it. I am very strict with my family and our use of our ATV's. I am very active with several organizations that go in and do clean-ups, work with the tree huggers so all can be happy, and promote safety with riding courses and such. I too hate seeing where someone took off and blazed thier own trail on a ATV as I know that it gives the Anti-ATV crowd ammunition to use against us.

BTW Liberty Optics had nothing to do with our hunt besides giving us excellent customer service. They are in MT, we are in WY, you talk like they sponserd us or something, they didnt. Maybe you should look at thier site on the web and see that they are very active in the shooting sports and fighting for our second admendment rights. But wait you wouldnt want to support them either cause we dont need our right to own our guns do we!

So go ahead and spill your wortheless gum flapping on here and talking about areas that are ruined by roads that have been there for decades. Probably longer than you have been alive. And by gosh, NOONE ever took thier trucks and jeeps on these roads back in the day when the bulls were so big it couldnt be imagined.

I find your response to this thread as an insult to my wife and my father and really our whole family. If you would like to meet me, I am in Evanston and will have no problem teaching you some manners Wyoming style.

 

[JB]

Sako, congrats to your Wife and Dad.

 

[1_pointer]

Congrats on the bulls!

But, I do hate to tell you that a couple of those pictures make it pretty clear that the ATVs are not on a two track. They very well could be close to one and you very well could have used a 2 track to get there, but in a couple of those pictures they are NOT on the road.

 

[Muley Crazy]

Ya, those quads are on 2 track roads for sure didnt you know WY makes there roads about 5 yards apart? LOL !!!!!!

 

[Dinkshooter]

Awesome bull. She looks like a happy hunter.

Classic thread, another holier than thou ATVer, sputtering excuses.

I wish those things were never invented.

 

[pa mt man]

Nice Bulls! Wish my wife hunted.

I think I'd remove the pics with the quads in them,unless you like typing.

 

[T Bone]

Congrats to your wife on exercising the patience and marksmanship to drop a bull on an existing road

Pictures don't support the story.

Seriously, spending time with the family is invaluable. Glad you and yours could get out wheelin.

 

[elk_hunter]

Nice bulls indeed!

Ditto...I wish my wife hunted...she hunts for clothes, shoes, etc...gotta figure out how to make her want to hunt deer and elk.

 

[Wyodeerhunter]

The wheelers are on a old 2 track road that goes up to the end of the clearing we were in.

So you couldn't walk that last little bit of distance?

As far as it being away from a main road, LMAO there is no main road in the area any closer than 10 miles from where we were.

10 miles? Pull out your map again and look. There is actually 2 main roads within "10 miles" of where you got the elk.

We were on a existing road dumb a$$! We were perfectly legal.

Yeah the pictures show that you were clearly on the road.

So go ahead, turn us in.

'

I never said I was but a good idea is a good idea.

I will be more than happy to take them to the EXACT spot where the elk was and show them how we got there.

That is how it goes when you have been turned in. Sounds like you have been in this position before. How much was the fine? Please do tell...

BTW, your picture is NOT of the same canyon. I have spent three months out of the past 3 years there, I know it upside down and backwards.

If you look in the northwest part of my picture that is the "basin" you were in. If you look in the north east part of the pic of your wife that is where I took my pic from. I know where you were. Hell I know the closest creek. I'm not the only one. I got a text message today to check out your dumbass post from one of my friends in WY. He didn't realize i already saw it.

Secondly. My family hunted horse back for over 30 years in the high Wyoming range. After an accident at work, my father can no longer ride a horse as he cant bend his ankle to fit in a stirrup yet alone climb onto a horse. Nor can he hike as again, his ankle will not bend allowing him to climb or drop down a hill. He is restricted to hunting either in a vehicle or on a ATV.

Ok class this is another classic example an atv abuser uses. My (insert name here) use to hike bike jump rope etc in the mountains but now because of (insert medical condition here) he no longer can. So that makes it ok to abuse the land huh? I guess its ok for an unemployed guy to rob a bank then. All he needed was money right?

If you think Horses do less damage than a wheeler does to an area, check out a trail after it has rained and a horse has been on it. The 12" deep holes from thier hooves will still be there after it dries. Dont even begin to try and tell me that isnt the case because anyone who has been on a horse in the high country will know thats exactly the way it is.

So you don't know how it is? Obviously you've never been in the high country. What website did you pull that off of? atvlovers.com? polaris.com? Some other website you posted your hero shot on?

Third, you have no idea who you are talking to. I am avid ATV and off road enthusiast.

You are an atv enthusiast? I would of never known....

I know better than anyone that if you abuse an area, you lose the use of it.

Sounds like a good story behind this one. How much country have you lost because YOU were riding offroad?

BTW Liberty Optics had nothing to do with our hunt besides giving us excellent customer service. They are in MT, we are in WY,

Thanks for telling me they are in MT. I didn't know that And if they had nothing to do with your hunt why did you mention them 20 times? Why don't you tell them about your post so they can read it? They lost a few future customers here today because of your post.

NOONE ever took thier trucks and jeeps on these roads back in the day when the bulls were so big it couldnt be imagined.

They didn't drive their trucks to the isolated canyons where the big bulls hide out at. An atv makes it all too easy to get to those spots.

I find your response to this thread as an insult to my wife and my father and really our whole family. If you would like to meet me, I am in Evanston and will have no problem teaching you some manners Wyoming style

Meet you in person? Why would I want to do that? I like to surround myself with positive hard working people. People who do things right even if it takes longer. There are always more than one way to do things. While hunting its clear you chose the easy way. Even if it destroys our public lands.

You say you are from evanston? Beautiful town with a big atv problem. I wonder why so much of the land around evanston isn't accessible these days? I'm sure tresspassing atvers had a part in it. Hell I've seen the abuse from the interstate there.

I'm not sure what "wyoming style" is? Born and raised in WY and I'm not sure what you are talking about? I guess you are trying to threaten me but I don't see the threat? After all you are just a fat ass atv rider...

Adam you owe me a vanilla coke because I told you this guy would make an online threat.

 

[BuzzH]

If I hear one more person use the line that their friend, Dad, uncle, cousin, etc. got hurt and cant hunt without an ATV...I'm going to puke. Thats a worn out and sorry excuse to justify illegal behavior. Right in line with a guy being too "old" to hike anymore.

Bunch of bullshit...my grandfather never set foot an ATV in his entire life and hunted on foot until his death in 2000...he was 84. That was after a heart-attack, a stroke, and a quadruple by-pass surgery. But, then again, he was just plain tough and wasnt one to bitch and whine that he was limited in where and how he could hunt. He did the best he could on foot...just like everyone else.

People are a bunch of mental and physical midgets these days.

Oh, and one last story...this can be verified by Oak as he was with me that day. We hiked into a wilderness area in Wyoming one opening day of elk season. We were a bit surprised to find 2 guys in the same spot we were going. We walked up and talked with them as it was about 30 minutes before legal shooting time. We asked them where they planned to hunt so we would not get in their way as they were there first. They said they didnt want to hunt much further in than they were, so we decided to make a big circle, give them their space and hunt below them and then up the other side of a large drainage from them.

Now to the point of the story...the reason they didnt want to hunt much further into the wilderness (about 3- 3.5 miles in)??? Because the older guy had a cast on his foot up to about mid-calf. He'd broken his ankle but didnt want to miss elk season, in particular since he and his wife were moving to Florida and this would be one of his last chances to hunt as a resident. So, he just put a bag around his cast to keep it "dry", an over-sized wool sock over the top to keep his toes "warm", and hobbled into the wilderness. Oak and I ran into the same two guys when we were packing my bull out later that day, and sure enough...both guys had killed cows.

I wonder how flexible that guys broken ankle was in that cast????

I really wish I would have taken a picture of him and his cow elk...one tough bastard.

 

[mtmiller]

Third, you have no idea who you are talking to. I am avid ATV and off road enthusiast.

That makes me feel better.

BTW Liberty Optics had nothing to do with our hunt besides giving us excellent customer service.

I agree.

Maybe you should look at thier site on the web and see that they are very active in the shooting sports and fighting for our second admendment rights. But wait you wouldnt want to support them either cause we dont need our right to own our guns do we!

Kinda reaching on this point, don't you think? Ernesto is anti-illegal off-road motorized travel, but I am missing how that translates into Second Amendment Rights???

I find your response to this thread as an insult to my wife and my father and really our whole family.

For me, I am not intending to insult anyone in your family and I hope they all enjoyed their time on the hunt.

I hope everything was done by the book and I will have to take your word that it was. I hope you can see that for of those that were not there, the pictures provided don't make the claims obvious.

congrats to the hunters....

 

[JoseCuervo]

BTW Liberty Optics had nothing to do with our hunt besides giving us excellent customer service. They are in MT, we are in WY, you talk like they sponserd us or something, they didnt. Maybe you should look at thier site on the web and see that they are very active in the shooting sports and fighting for our second admendment rights. But wait you wouldnt want to support them either cause we dont need our right to own our guns do we!

I looked at the Liberty Optics site and they look like they support a bunch of looney-tunes. They have discounts for the wing-nuts at Free State Wyoming, a bunch of wing-nuts that want people to move to Wyoming to spread there toxic messages of Hate.
From Liberty's site.....

We always look to offer you close-outs, bargains, or special demo pricing and bring these deals to you. For new, current-in-year merchandise, we reserve our absolute best pricing for the following clients: Registered members of Free State Wyoming www.freestatewyoming.org

And who are the Free State of Wyoming wing-nuts? This is how the Casper Tribune reported on them...

Here, in Newcastle, on a quiet Saturday, MamaLiberty and manfromnevada wear loaded handguns on their belts. Yes, Newcastle is a safe community, Callaway says, but "You never know."

Being armed, defending herself -- it's a belief, a conviction and a right, she says. She and Frank share many common beliefs, and they've come to believe that the people of Wyoming are most likely to share them, or at least accept them.

So they moved here. Dozens more have too, and many others have the Cowboy State in their scopes.

"I think the spirit of the independent cowboy rancher is still alive," Frank says. "I hope it is. 'Cause those are the people I want as my neighbors."

So do the other libertarians and independents who are moving from California and Nevada and the Carolinas and beyond to become part of something called Free State Wyoming.

Free State What?

An initial wave of several thousand disenfranchised Americans will move into five specific Wyoming counties, targeted for their scarce populations. The power of their votes coupled with the general apathy of current residents will allow for the election of the new wave's preferred county officials, sheriffs and state senators and representatives. The effect will grow to take over the majority of the state over the course of three election cycles.

A decade from now, the majority of Wyoming men and women will wear sidewinders to Wal-Mart, since those who don't will be taxed more on goods purchased. The crime rate will plummet lower than any other state. The public school system will be dismantled and privatized.

The biggest threat to hunting is not "the government" or attacks on the 2nd Amendment, it is the widespread abuse of Public Lands by ATV riders. The next biggest threat to hunting is the image and perception that hunters get from accidental association with wing-nuts like the people at Free State Wyoming, and, perhaps, those who support them.


Sources:
Casper Tribune http://www.casperstartribune.net/articles/2007/07/04/news/top_story/b782ec5ba70b85ea8725730e00000aac.txt

Liberty Discount for wing nuts at FreeStateWyoming: http://www.libertyoptics.com/index1.html

 

[TOM IN TENNESSEE]

Holy crap!!! I checked into this thread to offer congrats to your wife and Dad...So Congrats!
I am 65, smoke, have one artificial knee and the other is arthuritic...my neck arthuritis is so bad I can hardly turn it some times. I DO NOT OWN A GD ATV! I wish their was a season on them! If I can drag my azz into a hell hole down on the Blue River in AZ for a Bull and out, hunt East Cape Kudu on foot in the Mountains of East Cape or follow a Cape Buffalo track for 12 km one way with no shot and do it again the next day, so can any "Sportsman" !!

 

[Sako7STW]

Man I just love it when people talk about people they dont know. My Dad has a handicap permit to legaly hunt from a vehicle. Since I am defending my Dad here I will lay out how it really is.

After taking a fall at the process plant he works in he shatterd his tibia and fibula both resulting in dual compound factures. All but three bones were crushed in his foot and ankle. He broke his back resulting in 2 steel rods that now act as his entire lower back. His leg had to be repaired using a steel plate and his foot and ankle had 13 screws and over 100 pins. The hospital in Rock Springs wanted to amputate but after finding the back injury the flew him to Salt Lake where they decided to save his leg. 18 hours of surgery later (not including his back) his leg was saved.

Since then he has had 8 surgerys on his foot and ankle and leg alone. The last being a permanent fusion of his ankle. So no he cant bend his ankle up or down. To scale a hill one way or another he has to do it walking sideways. Along with the sugery's mentioned he has now had both knees replaced and is facing a hip replacement in the next few years and within a few months he has to go under for yet again another surgey on his foot.

So there is the truth as to his situation. Glad everyone know's so much about his health and his ability to hike and hunt. By the way, we are talking about the former President of the Wyoming Wildlife Federation and Chairman of the Sweeter Chapter of the Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation. If we were doing anything that endangered the public lands or be detrimental to the wildlife, he would have no part in it. I, myself am a former Co-Chairman and several year chairperson in the Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation. I am the founder of DS Days. An event that raises money to help clean up sand dunes like St. Anthony ID, Sand Mountain NV, and Little Sahara UT. This is to keep these areas open for use to give people a place to go and ride and hopefully reduce that amount of people that are riding thier ATV's and off-road vehicles ilegally.

Yes I know the pictures look as if they are not on the road. The road actually ends right where they are. Like I said, the raod goes to the end of the clearing. Thats where the bull is. There is a small turnaround point where they sit. Thats why they are not right by the Elk. Why would we park there if we didnt repect the area and drive right to the Elk and load it up right where he laid instead of dragging him the 100+ feet to where the wheelers are? No that is not where she shot from either and nore did she shoot from her wheeler. Like I said if you read closely that they had stopped and were figuring out where to place her to watch a area they had been moving through. She got lucky when they happened to be a few hundred yards from them in the cedars, got nervous and busted out. Sometimes things just work out and sometimes they dont.

If you look at the blue wheeler, it is a 2WD model. 94 Polaris Express 300. If we were busting the supposedly "no roads area" we sure wouldnt have a 2WD would we? Nore would we use a 300cc 2 stroke. But you wouldnt know anything about that. ALso if you look, you will see my backpack sitting on the front of the blue wheeler.

The set-up was, I was hiking from about 3 miles away through the bottoms and cedars to try and push a herd that we had seen earlier that day that had a large 6x6 bull in it towards where Dad and Amy were to be waiting. We had agreed Amy would shoot any bull 5x5 or bigger and like I said, she got lucky and did just that. I still however had to hike the 3 miles to get to them as I had the camera in my pack. If was the A-hole you think I am and out tearing up the country side with my wheeler (which incidently is the 2WD Polaris and the only wheeler we own thus Amy was on it) I sure as hell wouldnt be hiking now would I!

You folks were not there. You dont know what happened and didnt happen. All you seem to be able to do is spout accusations that are not true and are degrading to my family and myself.

Yes, I have been busted for illegaly riding my ATV. I had a Bombardier DS650 I just bought and was driving it down my street taking my 2 year old (at the time)daughter for a ride on the "wee wheeler" as she called it. Just so happened that a cop came around the corner. He gave me a ticket but I went to court and the judge dismissed it due to fact she felt I was not being distructive or disturbing to the neighborhood. Hows that for honesty??

In fact I have been part of the committee's that help determine the areas designated as Tread Lightly areas. Your preaching to the choir men. I do know the people that would handle the situation if we were turned in, thus I know the process. Thus I know what the results would be.

Just to show what I am into now as an off-roader, here is a few pictures. Over a year and half of work into this project. Cant wait to see what accusations the lemings have to say about this.......