Versatile Dogs and Handling???

[Foxtrot1]

We recently started a local group of dog trainers meeting one day a week to pool our resources and train dogs together. 2 have labs and 2 have versatile dogs. While running retriever drills this past week with Raina, my friend tried to talk me into teaching her to handle. I kinda have mixed feelings about this. Currently she'll run doubles, can handle 150yd marks, and will run blinds to about 100-110 yds. Right now I can send her on a line for a blind, and she basically uses her nose to locate the bird. Sometime it can take her a minute, but usually she's pretty quick. If she completely screws the line up, I can call her back and resend her. I can send her into water, or across ponds or ditches, she'll often stop and look back and if I give her the casting sign, she'll continue hunting farther out. I can also stop her on command with the whistle and she knows the "place" command. So the foundation for handling is there and with Tim's help, it shouldn't be too hard to teach true handling. But is it worth it on a versatile dog? I hunt quail, pheasants, and waterfowl with her. If I have a stellar year, she may be on 80-100 birds over the 3 month hunting season. I waterfowl hunt beaver ponds, sloughs, and small water, so there really isn't a need for handling blinds much over 100 yds. One of the things I really enjoy about hunting with her is her natural hunting drive and independant search. In two waterfowl seasons, I haven't lost a single bird with hunting with her. I have had to get out of the blind for two birds, 1 cripple I had to shoot again, and one that sailed 200 yds over or blind in ILL. The one that sailed went over the hill out of my sight, so I couldn't have handled her on a blind retrieve anyway. I basically walked over the hill and gave her the "hunt em" command and 5 minutes later she found him in knee deep water buried up in some tall grass that was leaning over. She hunted about 20 acres of marsh to find that one bird.

The lab guys are enthralled with field trial blinds handled over 400yds where the handler has to wear a white jacket for the dog to see the hand signals. I personally like to watch their dogs work, but I really don't see the applicability for where and how I hunt. I want my dog to be effecient at HUNTING, so what is good enough?

What are some of you guys with versatile dogs doing for blinds with your dogs?

 

[NChunter]

I don't know anything about field trials, but it sounds like you have a great dog that works perfectly for the way you hunt.

 

[putm2sleep]

Sounds like you have done a great job. Tip : Work them at night!

'I really don't see the applicability for where and how I hunt' = my sentiments exactly.

AND, I am sure your hunting buddies all enjoy watching your dog work! Little jealous probably too.

 

[drahthaar]

This idea of handling a dog at 400 yards is completely dumb(its cool, don't get me wrong) IMO, in the real world. First, you can't tell where a bird is at that distance, pheasants will run forever, how smart is it to keep telling the dog where you saw it fall and not let the dog track it? Second, it trains the dog to be handler dependent where it isn't using its nose, and third, in the real world, if a bird makes it that far, even 100 yards, it's not stone dead, its a cripple and its running probably. Training as you have done is the way it should be. You have a dog, for its nose. Let it use it.

 

[Foxtrot1]

You have a dog, for its nose. Let it use it.

That has really been my theory the whole time I have been working my dog. Sometimes there is just a disconnect with my friends who are professional trainers. I always look at things from a practical field/hunting perspective. While on the otherhand they have experiance training hundreds of dogs and want to push each dog to get the most they can out of them. I guess its a compliment they think my weim looks good enough to put the effort into her.

Drahthaar, you are right about the dogs depending on the handler. One professional trainer I watched last spring actually punished his dog for breaking a line to follow scent to a bird. At the time, I couldn't believe it. The guys I train with aren't that hardcore, but they work with that type of trainer daily. I have watched Raina prove me wrong time and again on where birds fell. I have also watched her track cripple pheasants 150-200 yds through a milo field. At this point, I absolutely have more faith in her knowing where a bird is than I do. Each year, I argue with her a few times and each year I end up being wrong.

I am sure your hunting buddies all enjoy watching your dog work! Little jealous probably too.

We all have a pretty good time together. I have been know to make fun of their labs for being alittle dumb and not as classy as my dogs. They make fun of my dog for being a "princess" because she won't associate with my nephews chocolate lab. Goose tries soo hard, but she just won't give him the time of day. But at the end of the day, we all hunt over each other's dog. I still think their labs would look better with a nub.

 

[skimerhorn]

It's all in what you want all the trophys and dog titles are great but if your never gonna use it I wouldnt waste yours and the dogs time drilling it in his head figure out what you want him to do and stick with that go to a few trials and see what happens the titles won't bring the birds to you

 

[drahthaar]

It's all in what you want all the trophys and dog titles are great but if your never gonna use it I wouldnt waste yours and the dogs time drilling it in his head figure out what you want him to do and stick with that go to a few trials and see what happens the titles won't bring the birds to you

Yep, it's all about those titles and ribbons. It IS very impressive with the lines and the hand signals, but I will take the nose of the dog ALL DAY EVERY TIME, when it comes to finding the bird. Nothing gets your dogs judged harsher at a JGHV test than blowing that whistle and shouting your ass off. Most Germans would rather you shoved the whistles where the sun don't shine. In fact, search behind a live duck is a big part of the second test. You get one command to send the dog, and then you shut up and watch the dog work.
At that part of my big brown male's test, he got a great duck(kind of like drawing a good bull at a rodeo). The duck swam the length of the pond, left the pond, then back in and crossed the pond, left the pond again and ran a couple hundred yards down the side and out into some reeds. I gave one command, sent the dog on a line to cut the scent on the water. About 500 yards later, the dog has caught up to the duck, and pushed it out into the water where a judge with a shotgun ran down the pond and shot it. The dog was so far away from me, the judges said, "handler, call your dog once, we will not deduct". The dog must deliver the duck to hand without dropping it, period. Needless to say he got a huge score on that one.