UT bonus point, worth the purchase?

[BuzzH]

Here's what I know...if I would have listened to a Debbie downer like Zim, I wouldn't have drawn several really great tags.

I also know that if you want a chance to hunt the best areas, or animals like sheep, goat, moose, bison...and you have a chance to draw a random tag...you're a fool for not applying.

Lets get real, 99% of the hunting world is not going to "save" their way to a desert sheep tag at $50-65K a pop. Bighorns at $35-50K a pop. Even Shiras moose hunts are expensive. Hell, hunting the best elk areas with a commission/governor tag or buying access is a 5 figure deal these days.

Crunch all the numbers you want...but I'm not likely to spend $65,000 in NR license fees in my life, but I drew a tag to hunt an animal that costs that much to just go out and buy...and did it for less than $2k, door to door. I hunted a bighorn sheep this year in Wyoming for $500 door to door.

If a person really doesn't have the resources ($$) to apply all over, that's one thing. I get it that many have to prioritize when it that situation. But, I view it as a charitable contribution to enhance, secure, and protect the animals I hunt and care the most about. If I don't get to draw, that's OK, the value I get is not just in the permit I receive, but the knowledge that I'm doing something to further conservation efforts.

Zim is the opposite, a typical boomer...if there isn't something in it for him, if he's not assured a return on the investment then he feels ripped off and betrayed. Its about HIM, not conservation, not to further enhancing habitat, not about perpetuating the species.

Sad...and if I ever begin to feel that way, I'll quit hunting and start golfing.

 

[Zim]

So, in summary, here is the answer for you ground floor guys considering buying into the Utah points program. These are direct quotes, and from both perspectives.

Randy Newburg:
“Utah is at the bottom of my list of places to apply”

BuzzH:
“I view it as a charitable contribution”

I concur with both party’s opinions.

 

[BuzzH]

So, in summary, here is the answer for you ground floor guys considering buying into the Utah points program. These are direct quotes, and from both perspectives.

Randy Newburg:
“Utah is at the bottom of my list of places to apply”

BuzzH:
“I view it as a charitable contribution”

I concur with both party’s opinions.

In summary, if you're a hunter of average means...you don't get to experience things like this unless you apply:

 

[BuzzH]

 

[BuzzH]

Sorry Zim, While you're continually crying in your beer...I'll be busy submitting applications and hunting.

…carry on.

 

[Zim]

Buzz,
You can’t seem to post one thing without name calling like a ten year old child. How old are you??? I can post a pile of success photos of critters not taken in Utah as well. But that’s not my style. I like to give good sound advice to young guys, just like Randy does. Not deceive them into making crappy investments with money they could otherwise put in their kid’s college fund. You ought to be ashamed of yourself.

Do you work for the corrupt SFW or something? Who the hell would want to piss their money away to Don “Peay to Play” with so many legitimate charitable alternatives out there?

And why is it that you don’t call Randy Newburg names for his mirror advice to mine?

 

[Zim]

You have absolutely zero statistics to prove your point. Because they don’t exist.

 

[BuzzH]

Buzz,
You can’t seem to post one thing without name calling like a ten year old child. How old are you??? I can post a pile of success photos of critters not taken in Utah as well. But that’s not my style. I like to give good sound advice to young guys, just like Randy does. Not deceive them into making crappy investments with money they could otherwise put in their kid’s college fund. You ought to be ashamed of yourself.

Do you work for the corrupt SFW or something? Who the hell would want to piss their money away to Don “Peay to Play” with so many legitimate charitable alternatives out there?

And why is it that you don’t call Randy Newburg names for his mirror advice to mine?

You're advice on applying for permits is on par with your success on elk in Montana...not worth a crap. Exactly why I've hunted muskox, desert sheep, bighorn sheep, mountain goat and you haven't.

I heard the same crap advice when I started applying for the things I wanted to hunt years and years ago...from knuckleheads just like you. Glad I didn't listen...if only obviously. Those knuckleheads didn't get to hunt the things I have...you know why? They didn't apply.

The most solid advice I can give, is apply in ANY and ALL states where you have a chance to draw a tag every year. Throw some money into raffles and super draws in the various states...good things happen, seen it.

...the alternative to that is someday sitting in your easy chair at age 80 wishing you didn't piss away 100's of opportunities at tags you've never drawn simply because you chose not to apply.

 

[BuzzH]

You have absolutely zero statistics to prove your point. Because they don’t exist.

Yes, I do.

You apply for a tag, you have a chance of drawing.

You don't apply your odds are statistically ZERO.

Those are the statistics that matter...and what separates the winners from the losers...

 

[TheDudeAbides]

Dude,
The definition of "trophy unit" is quite relative. You are going to the highest extreme naming the #1 units in those states you compare. Those are out of the question for any ground floor NR now. Even me with 20+ points! When you consider let's say units that offer an archer a 50% chance at a 320"+ elk, that is a reasonable benchmark to look for VALUE. The chance for a newbie NR drawing this type of tag is far, far higher in WY or AZ, etc. than Utah for sure. Look at the odds for let's say UT Book Cliffs compared to CO 61, AZ 6A, WY general, etc. These are exponentially easier to acquire than the Utah tag. You cannot argue with that. As Randy says, "Utah would be at the bottom of my list". Put it that way.

BTW - I spent this last archery deer season hunting directly next to the Jasper-Pulaski State Sandhill Crane Refuge. Literally walked the property line daily. It's the sandhill crane migration epicenter of the US. Dang when they all take off each evening I can't hear anything. Fugettabout hearing a deer approach. Get to glass stud bucks every day though walking around that refuge in broad daylight.

There was a giant deer killed this year on one of the Utah General Hunts that you could draw with 0 points this year. (From MM)

I have hunted this unit the year before and from my experience it is a crap unit, but someone figured it out this year.



I have seen many bucks killed on the general southern units that would rival some of the limited entry units (cough book cliffs cough).

I love the books, but the antler size isn't that great. It is also a road hunt, so they have to limit tags to have animals.

You could get in on the ground floor and hunt some of these general units and hunt more often while waiting.

The Hushin guys have killed many good deer in general units that could be drawn pretty easily (0-2 points).

The Hushin guys have also killed good elk on the OTC elk tag.

I get that Utah probably isn't the quality (in that you don't see as many deer on every hunt) of a Colorado or Wyoming, because they do not have the habitat that either state has.

However, there are hunts you can go on while just putting in for one of these better hunts.

There are opportunities out there and you have to decide what you want.

If I was looking for an elk with 320 score and 50% oppurtunity, then I would be putting in for LQ even in Wyoming. I don't think that is a reasonable bench mark, because even in 6A of Arizona they are not behind every tree.

If you are looking for just elk, then based on the number of tags you will have better options for LE/LQ than Utah and it may be near the bottom of the list with Nevada.

When I drew the Books with 6 points there were only 3 Non Resident tags for that hunt. 300 people for 2 random tags.

This doesn't mean that Utah is all bad, because Elk are harder to draw though.

Like I mentioned before there are other hunts you can do while waiting for an elk hunt.

I think the Utah Deer is vastly underrated due to the ability to get different hunts whether it be the extended, dedicated, general season, limited entry late ML hunts on general units, or limited entry.

I also think the cow elk hunts on those Limited entry units are great as well, especially when the tag is only $218 bucks.

It all comes down to what you want.

If you want to hunt more often, then there is a way to do that in Utah.

If you want to play the long game, then you can do that as well.

You can put it on the bottom of the list if you want, but you may be missing out on an opportunity.

 

[Zim]

Lots of words and yet more childish name calling in these posts, but yet again backed up by zero statistics. That’s because the numbers back up Randy.

The fact everyone is avoiding in the midst of all this is that all the money rookies invest while they are not drawing a tag in Utah is going to fund the most corrupt wildlife mobsters in the US, SFW. The corruption goes all the way up to the governor’s office. That alone is enough to steer clear. Much less the Powerball lottery odds.

**********************************************
Wherever SFW goes, scandal and corruption follow:

http://kutv.com/news/local/allegations-of-corruption-surround-utah-hungtin-and-conservation-expo

https://www.cascwild.org/don-peay-the-man-who-would-be-king-baron/

http://www.fieldandstream.com/blogs/conservationist/2012/03/group-founder-declares-north-american-hunting-model-“socialism”

http://www.standard.net/Recreation/...16-Western-Hunting-and-Conservation-Expo.html

http://www.mtbullypulpit.org/2012/06/pox-on-fox.html

http://www.thewildlifenews.com/2013...on-essentially-buy-utah-division-of-wildlife/

http://westernvaluesproject.org/tax...hunting-energy-industry-over-hunters-anglers/

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/02/u...-but-hunters-cry-foul.html?smid=pl-share&_r=2

http://www.themudflats.net/archives/25891

http://www.sltrib.com/news/4054427-155/rolly-lawyers-criticism-of-herbert-leads

This is what your “charitable contributions” are funding. Also SFW’s philosophy has Utah on track to become the #1 poaching state in the country.

 

[The Hedgehog]

Biggest whiner on earth = ZIM.

how’d that WY deer hunt go? I left some graffiti with your name on it in the muddy Gap junction restroom - 1 mile from where I saw a 190+ buck cross the road in your unit in August - the year you drew.

“ZIM wasn’t here. :-(“

 

[The Hedgehog]

I’m throwing about $200 again at Utah. Unlikely to draw but what the hell. I have 23 elk points and about that many for moose, teens for all others I think. If no draw there’s always MT general elk and deer and antelope and bear..

Spray and pray..

 

[Zim]

Greenhorn, Yet another child name caller. Really??? Took a stud in WY but I don’t go around bragging like some every time I score. Didn’t get a good field shot anyway. And was only rifle, not bow like I prefer. Besides was far more excited about buying a new house and getting the hell out of another corrupt state Illinois at that time. But WTH this thread is about Utah not me nor Wyoming! Very weird. You a SFW employee too?


**********************************************
Wherever SFW goes, scandal and corruption follow:

http://kutv.com/news/local/allegations-of-corruption-surround-utah-hungtin-and-conservation-expo

https://www.cascwild.org/don-peay-the-man-who-would-be-king-baron/

http://www.fieldandstream.com/blogs/conservationist/2012/03/group-founder-declares-north-american-hunting-model-“socialism”

http://www.standard.net/Recreation/...16-Western-Hunting-and-Conservation-Expo.html

http://www.mtbullypulpit.org/2012/06/pox-on-fox.html

http://www.thewildlifenews.com/2013...on-essentially-buy-utah-division-of-wildlife/

http://westernvaluesproject.org/tax...hunting-energy-industry-over-hunters-anglers/

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/02/u...-but-hunters-cry-foul.html?smid=pl-share&_r=2

http://www.themudflats.net/archives/25891

http://www.sltrib.com/news/4054427-155/rolly-lawyers-criticism-of-herbert-leads

This is what your “charitable contributions” are funding. Also SFW’s philosophy has Utah on track to become the #1 poaching state in the country.

 

[hossblur]

Utah Res.

Reality is Utah is second only Texas for corporate run Wildlife.

You all know @fw.

But we give another 300+ tags to "conservation". That's a grand total of over 500.

Most of Northern Utah is CWMU(private hunting club's), and while Montana was expanding access, Utah was closing its.

Utah growth rate is about 18%

So.

It will only get worse. Our "trophy" units are under constant commercial pressure. One guide service openly talks about the 100+ trail cams he has on one unit. There is a yearly drum bear of "cut tags", but only for normal folks, and only aimed at producing revenue for commercial interests.

So. That means that Utah, in my opinion, should be treated as a pipe dream. If you honestly look at what you spend trying to draw an upper tier unit, combined with the constant pressure to reduce tags that aren't for sale to highest bidder, combined with resident population pressure, there are much better options.

The simple reality is the same as all other point states, .... The Division appreciates the new trucks you guys buy them, but unless you were on the ground floor, that's all your going to get, a thank you disguised as an "unsuccessful" letter.

 

[BuzzH]

There are 2 statistical certainties this time of year:

1. People start applying for tags.
2. Zim crawls out of his bunker to whine and cry about corruption on every hunting board on the web.

Like clockwork...

 

[madtom]

Took a stud in WY but I don’t go around bragging like some every time I score.

Don't really care about the Utah whizzing match, but I do like to see big deer. Wish you'd share a story/pic, as that's a hunt many of us dream of.

 

[Zim]

madtom I’m actually in China right now visiting the wife’s family. Only got a taxidermy photo of him but not on computer I brought here. If I get time when I return I’ll post it in the WY forum. Right now just trying to survive the latest virus and get home!

 

[TheDudeAbides]

Lots of words and yet more childish name calling in these posts, but yet again backed up by zero statistics. That’s because the numbers back up Randy.

The fact everyone is avoiding in the midst of all this is that all the money rookies invest while they are not drawing a tag in Utah is going to fund the most corrupt wildlife mobsters in the US, SFW. The corruption goes all the way up to the governor’s office. That alone is enough to steer clear. Much less the Powerball lottery odds.

**********************************************
Wherever SFW goes, scandal and corruption follow:

http://kutv.com/news/local/allegations-of-corruption-surround-utah-hungtin-and-conservation-expo

https://www.cascwild.org/don-peay-the-man-who-would-be-king-baron/

http://www.fieldandstream.com/blogs/conservationist/2012/03/group-founder-declares-north-american-hunting-model-“socialism”

http://www.standard.net/Recreation/...16-Western-Hunting-and-Conservation-Expo.html

http://www.mtbullypulpit.org/2012/06/pox-on-fox.html

http://www.thewildlifenews.com/2013...on-essentially-buy-utah-division-of-wildlife/

http://westernvaluesproject.org/tax...hunting-energy-industry-over-hunters-anglers/

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/02/u...-but-hunters-cry-foul.html?smid=pl-share&_r=2

http://www.themudflats.net/archives/25891

http://www.sltrib.com/news/4054427-155/rolly-lawyers-criticism-of-herbert-leads

This is what your “charitable contributions” are funding. Also SFW’s philosophy has Utah on track to become the #1 poaching state in the country.

So, I didn't dive into the name calling.

I also provided information on how big deer can be killed with 0 points and even 1-3 to points.

I do not get how this was not backed up by statistics.

I do not get the what aboutism with SFW.

We were talking about the potential in Utah of taking trophy animals.

I get that Randy is a CPA and the Utah doesn't have the best track record with SFW.

However, there are hunts available for the average hunter that can be drawn with little to no points.

If you are looking to hunt, then how is this a bad investment?

 

[Zim]

So, I didn't dive into the name calling.

I also provided information on how big deer can be killed with 0 points and even 1-3 to points.

I do not get how this was not backed up by statistics.

I do not get the what aboutism with SFW.

We were talking about the potential in Utah of taking trophy animals.

I get that Randy is a CPA and the Utah doesn't have the best track record with SFW.

However, there are hunts available for the average hunter that can be drawn with little to no points.

If you are looking to hunt, then how is this a bad investment?

Dude,
The OP’s question was about investing in UT points. I don’t think his goal is to hunt zero point general deer units. He did not mention that. But if that is his goal, that’s another thing. It’s a reasonable strategy.

However, if he is after a mid or upper tier draw unit, that’s a totally different issue. In that case it’s especially important to be aware of where his SFW “charitable contributions” are going. And the bleak prospects of ever hunting.

After what SFW did to RMEF and the Utah taxpayers in the SLC Expo scandal, I can’t see how anyone but outfitters would want to fund them with long term financial support. And that is exactly what a newbie is buying into. It’s a shame because I have family in SLC and would have loved to visit there and attend the Expo had RMEF taken over. As it is, not gonna happen.