BirdManMike
Well-known member
There was another paper called Izvestia. Roughly translated, this means 'news'. The Russians had a saying, 'there is no Pravda in Izvestia and there is no Izvestia in Pravda'.
Ukraine / Russia
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BigHornRam
Well-known member
Excellent discussion. Thanks for posting.Another podcast, but some thoughts on the content within it. This is a roundtable about America's role in how this came to be, what we should do, and what we shouldn't. To be simple about it, two of the guests see the current American Administration as abjectly failing in their role in this, and one thinks they are doing well.
As war rages, maybe it is inappropriate to ask how we got here or what we could've done to prevent this. But maybe not. Some clips from history discussed in the podcast..
"To Russia, Ukraine can never be just a foreign country.We need a policy aimed at reconciliation." Henry Kissinger - 2014
"The West is leading Ukraine down the Primrose Path and the end result is that Ukraine is going to get wrecked." John Mearsheimer - 2016
"Ukraine's desire to join NATO is not protecting Ukraine and is threatening Ukraine with major war." - Chomsky - 2015
"The 1980s want their foreign policy back." - Barack Obama -2014
The podcast not only discusses how we got here and what we should have done differently, but what we should do today, and the guests disagree fairly vehemently on the level of hawkishnes we should exhibit. This is a really well done podcast, and these guys are experts, and I believe, come by their positions earnestly. Which says something about how confusing this is and how there will be variation in people's takes on this, particularly to guys who are OK at recommending hunting boots and rifle caliber loads.
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Irrelevant
Well-known member
Technically yes, but it's a pretty different set of "facts"
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On Thursday, Russian and Ukrainian delegations held a second round of talks in Belarus which resulted in an agreement to jointly organise humanitarian corridors to ensure evacuation of civilians and deliveries of food and medicines. Also...
sputniknews.com
What's Next, Nazi-Style Book Burning? West's 'Cancel Russia' Effort is Morally Insane, Scholars Say
Sanctions against Russia over the Kremlin’s special operation to demilitarise and de-Nazify Ukraine are reportedly now accompanied by Russophobic hysteria, with children bullied, churches vandalized, sportsmen ostracized, and high-profile...
sputniknews.com
I mean there's an entirely different reality being portrayed out there.
I'm not supporting my co-worker, or russia, but just pointing out how scary the implications of mass deception are, and how far down that path humanity already is.
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BigHornRam
Well-known member
China Welcomes Russian Oil Tankers With Alternative Payment Options
By Chen Aizhu (Reuters) – Chinese refiners are paying for Russian crude oil using cash transfers to maintain imports from Russia’s Fast East, as banks shy away from financing the oil because...
gcaptain.com
D
Deleted member 28227
Guest
I think my biggest issue right now with folks... both sides of the aisle, Covid and the war in Ukraine, is the characterization of lack of perfect knowledge as an indictment of fact, and/or proof of conspiracy, and then also completely discounting any opinion that isn't popular doctrine.
Our knowledge of Covid is totally different now then in 2020, we have made a lot of changes in policy and recommendations based on what we have observed and learned, and some of the ideas that people were lambasted for as being stupid and reckless having actually been proven to be correct.
All of that is to say... yeah Fog of War. I accept that there are multiple sides to this, everyone is trying to win the PR game... just as they did in every other war. Same time there are some things you can't deny and people are crazy if they do...
Typing this out I remember getting into an argument with a college professor about Vietnam, specifically the second Gulf of Tokin incident. The professor said it happened, their belief was based on news reports, books, speeches, etc, that were published in 1964... ie first hand memories, I said it didn't and based that on Robert McNamara stating specifically that it didn't happen in 2003. Professor said I was repeating a conspiracy theory...
Everyone should probably have some level of skepticism... or you know as the Russians say Doveryay, no proveryay
BackofBeyond
Well-known member
Hell of a 13k...I think my biggest issue right now with folks... both sides, Covid and not the war in Ukraine, is the characterization of lack of perfect knowledge as an indictment of fact, and/or proof of conspiracy, and then also completely discounting any opinion that isn't popular doctrine.
Our knowledge of Covid is totally different now then in 2020, we have made a lot of changes in policy and recommendations based on what we have observed and learned, and some of the ideas that people were lambasted for as being stupid and reckless having actually been proven to be correct.
All of that is to say... yeah Fog of War. I accept that there are multiple sides to this, everyone is trying to win the PR game... just as they did in every other war. Same time there are some things you can't deny and people are crazy if they do...
Typing this out I remember getting into an argument with a college professor about Vietnam, specifically the second Gulf of Tokin incident. The professor said it happened, their belief was based on news reports, books, speeches, etc, that were published in 1964... ie first hand memories, I said it didn't and based that on Robert McNamara stating specifically that it didn't happen in 2003. Professor said I was repeating a conspiracy theory...
Everyone should probably have some level of skepticism... or you know as the Russians say Doveryay, no proveryay
Irrelevant
Well-known member
He should have made his point with a graph.
D
Deleted member 28227
Guest
406dn
Well-known member
- Joined
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- 2,046
I keep returning to a few hard facts.
1) Russia started the hostilites
2) Russia crossed the boundary of a foreign country.
3) For now, all of the hostilities are occurring in Ukraine. Ukraine has not invaded or attacked Russian territory.
4) Russia has targeted civilians. All of the Russians in Ukraine are military and fair game in war.
5) Russia was willing to risk a radioactive leak in an attack on a nuclear power plant.
Based on the above, I'm not buying anything Russia might say. I will give the Ukrainians the benefit of doubt when it comes to any information war.
1) Russia started the hostilites
2) Russia crossed the boundary of a foreign country.
3) For now, all of the hostilities are occurring in Ukraine. Ukraine has not invaded or attacked Russian territory.
4) Russia has targeted civilians. All of the Russians in Ukraine are military and fair game in war.
5) Russia was willing to risk a radioactive leak in an attack on a nuclear power plant.
Based on the above, I'm not buying anything Russia might say. I will give the Ukrainians the benefit of doubt when it comes to any information war.
6.) Russia is the largest source of misinformation and fake news, and that includes the US cable news system.
D
Deleted member 28227
Guest
7.) Russia has long history of grievances regarding the Ukraine.
For instance pipelines, the US absolutely has been provoking them in this regard. That being said we also hosed Canada on the Keystone pipeline and they didn't invade the US.
Canada would have invaded, but they know where the poo in their poutine comes from.
Irrelevant
Well-known member
Glad I'm not the only one that doesn't know what's going on, neither do the experts...Another podcast, but some thoughts on the content within it. This is a roundtable about America's role in how this came to be, what we should do, and what we shouldn't. To be simple about it, two of the guests see the current American Administration as abjectly failing in their role in this, and one thinks they are doing well.
As war rages, maybe it is inappropriate to ask how we got here or what we could've done to prevent this. But maybe not. Some clips from history discussed in the podcast..
"To Russia, Ukraine can never be just a foreign country.We need a policy aimed at reconciliation." Henry Kissinger - 2014
"The West is leading Ukraine down the Primrose Path and the end result is that Ukraine is going to get wrecked." John Mearsheimer - 2016
"Ukraine's desire to join NATO is not protecting Ukraine and is threatening Ukraine with major war." - Chomsky - 2015
"The 1980s want their foreign policy back." - Barack Obama -2014
The podcast not only discusses how we got here and what we should have done differently, but what we should do today, and the guests disagree fairly vehemently on the level of hawkishnes we should exhibit. This is a really well done podcast, and these guys are experts, and I believe, come by their positions earnestly. Which says something about how confusing this is and how there will be variation in people's takes on this, particularly to guys who are OK at recommending hunting boots and rifle caliber loads.
Latest Episodes | Honestly Podcast
Rainer
Well-known member
- Joined
- Feb 4, 2016
- Messages
- 732
It would really be a 2 pronged attack if Canada was to invade. Our senior snowbirds would start in the south and the rest would come in from the north lol
Rainer
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- Joined
- Feb 4, 2016
- Messages
- 732
Oh Sorry. eh. This now belongs to us now. lol
D
Deleted member 28227
Guest
and then being subjected to TH coffee for the rest of my life...no... blood of patriots indeed...
Canada's skeer'd of our gun crazed culture to invade with their high sticking tactics and believe the fabled Yamamoto (though unconfirmed) quote:
"You cannot invade the mainland United States. There would be a rifle behind every blade of grass."
Toast to the gun crazed Ukrainians!
"You cannot invade the mainland United States. There would be a rifle behind every blade of grass."
Toast to the gun crazed Ukrainians!
The information age is looking more like the "misinformation age" or "I don't know what to believe" age.
Nick87
Well-known member
YupThe information age is looking more like the "misinformation age" or "I don't know what to believe" age.
noharleyyet
Well-known member
Nickleback…oh the horror.
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