SAJ-99
Well-known member
Like when then government gave the railroad companies sections of land to built a railroad?
I would be less worried about the absolute fact they work together and more about the end benefit of the work.
Ukraine / Russia
- Thread starter Cheesehead
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I would be less worried about the absolute fact they work together and more about the end benefit of the work.yes, we can not forget the Lobbyist ( Corporate America's influence on Government )
Captured: The corporation's infiltration of the American dream. Whitehouse D--RI
is an interesting read regarding this issue
and as an aside, if I may. A couple of you gentlemen may be right that a female in her twenties has no clue, but my age and gender does not keep me from being interested in what works for America and doesn't . I may be young, female, and according to some ill informed, but it wont keep me from politely expressing my opinion. I also want to thank two females and two male's, on this forum, who have supported my right to have an opinion, (even if it differs from theirs) as well as a bit of guidance
Captured: The corporation's infiltration of the American dream. Whitehouse D--RI
is an interesting read regarding this issue
and as an aside, if I may. A couple of you gentlemen may be right that a female in her twenties has no clue, but my age and gender does not keep me from being interested in what works for America and doesn't . I may be young, female, and according to some ill informed, but it wont keep me from politely expressing my opinion. I also want to thank two females and two male's, on this forum, who have supported my right to have an opinion, (even if it differs from theirs) as well as a bit of guidance
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Dang, I leave for nine days and this thread has somehow maintained its civility, even if it no longer has anything to do with Russia-Ukraine.
Carry on .........
Carry on .........
Gerald Martin
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Donāt apologize for being young, female, or conservative. The demographics that describe you and the worldview that influences how you filter life experiences and facts about the world are just as valid as anyone elseās demographics and worldview.
An honest approach to understanding truth and trying to sort fact from propaganda is not something to ever be ashamed of. A healthy sense of introspection and understanding that all sides have bias and itās human nature to gravitate towards accounts that support our bias can be a great asset in determining truth.
A well honed internal BS meter doesnāt hurt either.
Facts are facts regardless of the political loyalties of the one presenting the data. Obviously, the converse is true as well.
If anyone is disputing a fact you present with the argument that it canāt be true because you are young, female, or conservative, thatās probably a pretty good indicator they donāt have rational arguments or a counter point to prove your facts are false and their facts are more accurate.
One other thing that I have noticed is a tendency for humanity to sympathetically self label themselves with a label they view positively as a means of self-affirmation.
As a self-identifying conservative myself, I often find myself more agitated over the violation of conservative principles by people who want to wear the label but advance policies and practices that are in direct opposition to the principles they claim to uphold than I am about the āridiculousā agenda of āleftist liberalsā. Not because I agree with āthe leftist liberal agendaā but because the tactics and thinking of some self described āconservativesā are self serving and corrupt and undermine the reputation and effectiveness of individuals of good character.
Gerald Martin
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Isnāt it nice to be surprised by good behavior now and then?
Your admonitions and warnings about maintaining civility seem to be paying off.
.Kind of like when you see a teenager implementing some value you thought they were resistant to?
D
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Absolutely. I'm in the "there definitely is a problem" camp not the "this is the solution".
Also I think we need to separate malevolent foreign actors from minority opinions. I don't see Joe Rogan talking about whatever Joe Rogan want's to talk about as an issue. I see a foreign government militarizing social media as an issue.
Firewalling all Russian IPs seems heavy handed, but also...
noharleyyet
Well-known member
Gerald cuts thru the crap like a Gerber thru Red Rind Mild . . .Donāt apologize for being young, female, or conservative. The demographics that describe you and the worldview that influences how you filter life experiences and facts about the world are just as valid as anyone elseās demographics and worldview.
An honest approach to understanding truth and trying to sort fact from propaganda is not something to ever be ashamed of. A healthy sense of introspection and understanding that all sides have bias and itās human nature to gravitate towards accounts that support our bias can be a great asset in determining truth.
A well honed internal BS meter doesnāt hurt either.
Facts are facts regardless of the political loyalties of the one presenting the data. Obviously, the converse is true as well.
If anyone is disputing a fact you present with the argument that it canāt be true because you are young, female, or conservative, thatās probably a pretty good indicator they donāt have rational arguments or a counter point to prove your facts are false and their facts are more accurate.
One other thing that I have noticed is a tendency for humanity to sympathetically self label themselves with a label they view positively as a means of self-affirmation.
As a self-identifying conservative myself, I often find myself more agitated over the violation of conservative principles by people who want to wear the label but advance policies and practices that are in direct opposition to the principles they claim to uphold than I am about the āridiculousā agenda of āleftist liberalsā. Not because I agree with āthe leftist liberal agendaā but because the tactics and thinking of some self described āconservativesā are self serving and corrupt and undermine the reputation and effectiveness of individuals of good character.
I can cut some cheese...but nuttin like GM.
SAJ-99
Well-known member
And a male in his 20's has no clue. There is beauty and usefulness in that. That is how change happens. Boomers want the world to return to a state of bliss that never really existed (the 70's sucked and the 80's weren't much better), so it could be argued they have no clue either. Maybe none of us do and we are all just trying to figure it out. That requires calling out stuff that is obvious BS. When we try new things, there better be a plan B and C if something we didn't expect happens. What we shouldn't stand quietly by and accept is claims of reality that simply aren't true. Politicians have been doing it since they were invented, but are now stepping it up to a new level.
noharleyyet
Well-known member
We can discuss and debate which claims are true and which are not. We shouldn't stand by quietly and let anyone be silenced. No politician, individual, or entity should be able to decide which claims are true and which ones are allowed in public. The danger is not too much information.
VikingsGuy
Well-known member
I used to agree with this entirely. But the theory that bad speech is fixed by drowning it with good speech doesn't seem to work in the current world given both the computer-driven and personal media selection echo chambers that define much of our current discourse. I am not sure what to do, as I fear govt. censorship, but I am also doubtful that in 2022 unfettered speech by itself will result in a final accurate understanding of reality.
noharleyyet
Well-known member
Fair enough, but within the confines of this forum, condescending horse-chit doesn't always lead to the pony.
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Gerald Martin
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406dn
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I think everyone likes a little censorship of the views they disagree with, even while extolling the concept of free speech.
The don't say gay laws and banning of critical race theory in classrooms are two examples. The sporadic efforts to ban flag burning would be another.
From the left, certain speakers are not welcome at many college venues. There are other examples, no doubt.
It may be that it has always been so, more or less. The difference now is that everything can travel so quickly. Mark Twain said a lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes. That advantage is only greater in today's world.
I doubt there is any remorse among those who swapped e-mails touting Obama was a muslim or born in Kenya. There is an appetite for a salacious lie.
Another Mark Twin quote. It's is easier to fool people than to convince them they have been fooled.
The don't say gay laws and banning of critical race theory in classrooms are two examples. The sporadic efforts to ban flag burning would be another.
From the left, certain speakers are not welcome at many college venues. There are other examples, no doubt.
It may be that it has always been so, more or less. The difference now is that everything can travel so quickly. Mark Twain said a lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes. That advantage is only greater in today's world.
I doubt there is any remorse among those who swapped e-mails touting Obama was a muslim or born in Kenya. There is an appetite for a salacious lie.
Another Mark Twin quote. It's is easier to fool people than to convince them they have been fooled.
VikingsGuy
Well-known member
I am reminded of a point Ezra Klein made in his book, Why We Are Polarized. (note, I rarely agree with Ezra on political issues, but found his book raised some really good points, especially in the first two-thirds). Ezra pointed out studies that showed the increased likelihood of folks tying their self-identity to their politics in a way we had not done in the past. People used to identify as "bowlers" or "hunters" or "bakers" or "Rotarians" or "Catholics" or . . . . ., now they identify as conservatives or progressives or independents, etc. As such, politics becomes much more existential to one's self-image.
Until we can disconnect politics from our self-identity, I am not sure any approach to speech will improve things. As long as our very being is tied up in the political war game there really is no path to improved ability to learn, find nuance, and engage the "other" in sincere problem solving. We have turned politics into team death sports - sports where we are willing to burn the city down after big losses and big wins.
D
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The enemy of my enemy is my friend.
When your "friend" is a foreign state actor you might need to re-evaluate your priorities.
MinnesotaHunter
Well-known member
The truth defends itself....the reverse is also true.
Straight Arrow
Well-known member
A basic premise of the satirical Birds Aren't Real movement.
SAJ-99
Well-known member
No one is being silenced by the Government. If those that chose to follow an alternate reality want to be heard, they can start their own company. Iām a big believer in the first amendment and mostly agree with your statement. But I kind of expect the American citizen to take care of bat chit crazy at the polls. There seem to be a few districts that are struggling with that. The overall problem is that the bat chit crazy is what gets clicks so they dominate media coverage, further polarizing the public which leads to nothing getting done.
