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Uh Oh

sbhooper

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That figures. A guide blew the whistle on it. Another example of outdoorsmen not sticking together. The population of lions is high everywhere and I doubt the numbers will suffer because of an occasional trap death.

Yes, it was bad, but would it be any worse if he had been gut shot by a poor shot from an outfitter's client and gotten away? People need to keep this stuff in perspective and realize the motivation of some of the people that blow the whistle when things go bad. Stuff like this makes predator management harder all the time.
 

mtmuley

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I fail to see how bringing this incident into the spotlight will help anything. Especially in the area where it happened. Anja Heister that is quoted in the article is the top dog at Footloose Montana. I may be wrong about Anja heading up Footloose. I'll have to check. She did at one time. mtmuley
 
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JLS

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What a fool. He's using this "find" as a platform to grandstand his greater cause, which appears to be greater financial gain for lion hunt outfitters? I'm sure there were other ways to go about this, and there's a very good chance that five years down the road he'll wish that he had explored those options a little more thoroughly before going to the newspaper.
 
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tjones

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Knowing the folks involved I will bet there is more to the story.
 

elkantlers

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I call BS. That paw was placed in that trap and probably by a houndsman that has a anti trapping agenda or one of the Footloose wackos. If that foot really was lost in that trap there would be alot more damage to the foot. The cut is just too clean.

"Ruark said. Outfitters should be thoroughly angry because they get $5,000 a pop from their clients to kill one and now there’s one less to hunt. "

Sounds like every other outfitter. These animals are just Dollar signs to them, No more, no less.
 

JEL

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I agree with elkantlers. This seemed pretty fishy to me the first time I read it and saw the pictures. I believe it was staged to gain support for the anti-trapping movement.
 

tjones

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Seems a bit convenient the story somes out just before the FWP commission set lion quotes for this falls season.
 

RobertR

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Knowing the folks involved I will bet there is more to the story.

I think there is way more to this story. Why wasn't it left for FWP to investigat,why didn't the trapper report it. There are a lot of unanswered questions. Not a comment in the Ravalley Republic and 62 comments in the liberal California,Missoulinan oh their not biased.
 

katqanna

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Theres more to this than the article is stating.

  • The trap was found a couple weeks ago. Wolf trapping is Dec. 15 - Feb. 28. So this trap was left out there irresponsibly or it was illegally there.

  • The trap had no trapper identification from what was relayed to me right after it was found and it was on public land.

  • Ruark has never outfitted.

  • Cal took this trap to a meeting with FWP Region 2 Arnold, Thompson and Commissioner Gary Wolfe. Wolfe asked Cal to bring this up at the next commission meeting.

  • These guys dont work with York or Heister.

These guys had the meeting with FWP because of mounting concerns with the quota system. Their main point in the trap is that the "human related fatalities need to be counted." This has been their concern for years, stated in person, at the meetings I have gone to and their public comments.

FWP had stated they were going to do this "liberal thinning program" for 3 years then stop. All based on a modeling paper that is contested, not peer reviewed and was even contested by the mountain lion hunters that participated in the study with FWP (I have audio of that meeting). Now FWP is changing their position on that, wanting to continue the heavy reduction and that has these guys concerned. They discussed with me, over a year ago, about the numbers not be properly recorded. I had called APHIS Wildlife Services and gotten the reports for them of all their kills before the Mountain Lion meeting in Three Forks.

So y'all can jump on a fellow sportsman for not holding the thin camo line, in your eyes, but you might want to look into some things first, instead of accepting the spoon feeding the media and certain agencies give you. One could ask the question, wheres your solidarity for standing with the hunter?
 
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mtmuley

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while Ruark's intent was to bring the incidental lion kills to FWP's attention, his splashing it all over the local papers was a bad move. We have an ever increasing anti trapping and anti hunting population in this area. This just fuels their cause. mtmuley
 

tjones

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Sorry Kat but your facts are slanted. There has never been a 3 year heavy reduction. Never.
I have been involved in the elk and lion study since the beginning and if you would like we can continue a fact based discussion through PM's.

Cal is not a fellow sportsmen.
 

Topgun 30-06

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I call BS. That paw was placed in that trap and probably by a houndsman that has a anti trapping agenda or one of the Footloose wackos. If that foot really was lost in that trap there would be alot more damage to the foot. The cut is just too clean.

"Ruark said. Outfitters should be thoroughly angry because they get $5,000 a pop from their clients to kill one and now there’s one less to hunt. "

Sounds like every other outfitter. These animals are just Dollar signs to them, No more, no less.

Exactly what I thought as soon as I read the article and looked at the picture!
 

Pagosa

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Sounds like an oliver twist story to me and rather poor taste in bringing the item up. Mountain Lion advocate? I can say that 75% of houndsmen are tall tellers, they all have the best hound for SELL, or tree really high numbers of game. I can say this because I run hounds too, but my current dog is young and inexperienced. I would hate to loose a dog to a trap, but why can't houndsmen and trappers work together? I'm not familiar with region 2 lion quotas, but are they wanting to go to a draw like region 1? It will be interesting to find out the facts from the law enforcement investigation.
 

katqanna

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Mtmuley, I understand your concerns about the anti-trapping and anti-hunting agendas increasing, so much so that when contacted previously by Heister about signing their anti-trapping thing, though I am not a huge fan of the indiscriminate nature of trapping, I will not sign their petitions or advocate for their positions, nor have I ever promoted their positions on the website or in the newsletter. I have also received emails from a couple friends this last winter about their dogs getting caught in traps on public lands, which ended up being written up in the newspapers. I did not post that information to my newsletter, nor add the articles to my newsletter. This is one of those issues that I see as having the potential to get real ugly, real fast and having a lot of collateral damage. I advocate for hunting, I dont want that eroded.

I think the bigger thing that fuels their cause is a trap illegally out after the end of the wolf season and not having the legally required trap identification identifying the owner (this was on public lands). And, if the owner had gone out to check the traps, as required within 48 hours, saw that they had a non-targeted species in their trap, they are required to contact FWP and that was not done.

All of those things are what led to this article going out, which could add fuel to the fire, as you say. Is anyone upset about those things and blaming the trapper for causing this situation in the first place?
 

JLS

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I think the bigger thing that fuels their cause is a trap illegally out after the end of the wolf season and not having the legally required trap identification identifying the owner (this was on public lands). And, if the owner had gone out to check the traps, as required within 48 hours, saw that they had a non-targeted species in their trap, they are required to contact FWP and that was not done.

All of those things are what led to this article going out, which could add fuel to the fire, as you say. Is anyone upset about those things and blaming the trapper for causing this situation in the first place?

One act of stupidity is not remedied by another act of stupidity.
 

mtmuley

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Is Cal's "friend" the trapper? I don't trap, yet. I believe the backlash from this angering anti trappers will cause damage to hunting as well. As soon as York and Heister realize their goal of eliminating trapping, they will turn their attention elsewhere. It may not apply to all lion hunters, but they seem to be selfish and one sided on issues. Still say it was bad publicity. Ruark I'm sure didn't take time to realize that. mtmuley
 

Topgun 30-06

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Mtmuley, I understand your concerns about the anti-trapping and anti-hunting agendas increasing, so much so that when contacted previously by Heister about signing their anti-trapping thing, though I am not a huge fan of the indiscriminate nature of trapping, I will not sign their petitions or advocate for their positions, nor have I ever promoted their positions on the website or in the newsletter. I have also received emails from a couple friends this last winter about their dogs getting caught in traps on public lands, which ended up being written up in the newspapers. I did not post that information to my newsletter, nor add the articles to my newsletter. This is one of those issues that I see as having the potential to get real ugly, real fast and having a lot of collateral damage. I advocate for hunting, I dont want that eroded.

I think the bigger thing that fuels their cause is a trap illegally out after the end of the wolf season and not having the legally required trap identification identifying the owner (this was on public lands). And, if the owner had gone out to check the traps, as required within 48 hours, saw that they had a non-targeted species in their trap, they are required to contact FWP and that was not done.


All of those things are what led to this article going out, which could add fuel to the fire, as you say. Is anyone upset about those things and blaming the trapper for causing this situation in the first place?


I believe you're putting the cart before the horse when there is no proof that the trap was even placed by a legal or illegal trapper! It doesn't even appear that there was an investigation attempted, but rather just this attempt to fire up an agenda to help a particular segment of hunters.
 
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.280 Remington

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I'd like to see some pictures from where the lion supposedly clawed up the tree. That would show whether this is BS or not.
 

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