U.S. Vision: Development Within National Forests.

[Gerald Martin]

The great spotted owl fiasco destroyed the timber economies of the PNW and thus Americans were forced to buy cheaper Canadian wood products under NAFTA. That was a perfect example of enviro wacko policies being implemented to the detriment of small towns all across the PNW. Then after the damage was done it was opps! Our bad, sorry. Turns out the spotted owls cousin the barred owl preys on the spotted owl. Lives, economies and communities destroyed for nothing but phony wack job enviro science.

Them spotted owls must be amazing. They even destroyed economies in areas they don’t exist!

 

[Sytes]

Local mills shutting down and Canadian softwoods providing lumber to US markets is more of a result of economic realities rather than restrictions on timber harvests from federal lands.

Well snap...

Kootenai National Forest Supervisor Bob Castaneda acknowledged the problem.

"They are entirely right. The ideal situation is for us to be able to provide a steady amount of timber," he said. "We can do our part on that, but if [timber sales are] held up by litigation, then it's out of our control and it's in the courts' hands."

 

[Gerald Martin]

Well snap...

I sure don’t remember lawsuits holding up timber sales in Sanders Co. I do recall timber sales without bidders because the markets wouldn’t support stumpage fees and costs of getting the timber to market.

To be sure some sales have been held up or blocked by lawsuits. But to say that has killed logging in the west is to ignore the major cause, IMO.

Also to be clear, I am pro-logging.

 

[mtmuley]

I sure don’t remember lawsuits holding up timber sales in Sanders Co. I do recall timber sales without bidders because the markets wouldn’t support stumpage fees and costs of getting the timber to market.

To be sure some sales have been held up or blocked by lawsuits. But to say that has killed logging in the west is to ignore the major cause, IMO.

Also to be clear, I am pro-logging.

So what killed logging in Montana Gerald? And when did you get here? mtmuley

 

[Gerald Martin]

So what killed logging in Montana Gerald? And when did you get here? mtmuley

In my non- professional opinion. Economic factors of production costs on one hand with the KO blow of “cheap” essentially subsidized Canadian lumber flooding US markets.

But what do I know? It’s only been five years since I got here from California. That’s almost the same as being a 5th generation Montanan isn’t it?

What killed logging in MT? I don’t cut the trees down, I just pound nails into the lumber.

 

[rtraverdavis]

The great spotted owl fiasco destroyed the timber economies of the PNW and thus Americans were forced to buy cheaper Canadian wood products under NAFTA. That was a perfect example of enviro wacko policies being implemented to the detriment of small towns all across the PNW. Then after the damage was done it was opps! Our bad, sorry. Turns out the spotted owls cousin the barred owl preys on the spotted owl. Lives, economies and communities destroyed for nothing but phony wack job enviro science.

It was a hell of a lot more than the spotted owl that has killed small-town logging economies here in Oregon. @FI460 sent this to me the other day. Beating the spotted owl dead horse is just another way to keep us squabbling, while a few rich bastards rake it in.

Big money bought Oregon’s forests. Small timber communities are paying the price.

Wall Street investment funds took control of Oregon’s private forests. Now, wealthy timber corporations reap the benefits of tax cuts that have cost rural counties billions.

www.opb.org

 

[Sytes]

In my non- professional opinion. Economic factors of production costs on one hand with the KO blow of “cheap” essentially subsidized Canadian lumber flooding US markets.

But what do I know? It’s only been five years since I got here from California. That’s almost the same as being a 5th generation Montanan isn’t it?

What killed logging in MT? I don’t cut the trees down, I just pound nails into the lumber.

Interested in a current setting?

Legal battles slow timber industry, forcing mill closure in Townsend

A Montana town of only 2,000 residents is about to lose one of its biggest employers -- a timber mill. RY Timber said it will be shutting down its Townsend location in April, laying off about 70 employees. It had been running for about 40 years. Management blames ongoing litigation against the...

nbcmontana.com

Management blames ongoing litigation against the logging industry as the reason for the mill’s closure.

The Forest Service says they currently have 17,588 acres of Montana’s forests tied up in court. That’s enough lumber and wood panels to make about 10,000 to 12,000 single-family homes

Dang Librul Enviro Wackos are killing our jobs,”

 

[Sytes]

Back in 2015, a study by UM prompted by yours truly, the U.S. Forest Service, found those Dang Environmental Wackos ARE killing MT jobs...

Forest Service-funded study: Timber sale lawsuits impact local jobs, tax revenue

The largest potential economic impacts to communities from timber sale lawsuits come in the form of lost jobs, labor income and federal, state and local taxes, according to a study

missoulian.com

 

[Gerald Martin]

So now that you have identified the problem, what is the solution?

 

[Sytes]

Refer to the opening post, Gerald. The Reuters article. Sounds like that's the objective to find a solution.

 

[BigHornRam]

So now that you have identified the problem, what is the solution?

Fuel reduction, jobs, water quality, low carbon electrical generation. Forest in Focus.....State of Montana Working with the USFS to manage our working forests. Quit mocking people that are trying to find solutions and get on board.

Fuel reduction project underway in Flathead National Forest

A fuel reduction project aims to protect Whitefish’s water supply in the event of a wildfire. The idea for the Whitefish Municipal Watershed Fuel Reduction Project started with a proposal from the city of Whitefish about 16 years ago. Whitefish Face Working group, interested citizens and a...

nbcmontana.com

 

[BigHornRam]

In my non- professional opinion. Economic factors of production costs on one hand with the KO blow of “cheap” essentially subsidized Canadian lumber flooding US markets.

But what do I know? It’s only been five years since I got here from California. That’s almost the same as being a 5th generation Montanan isn’t it?

What killed logging in MT? I don’t cut the trees down, I just pound nails into the lumber.

Good read for you Gerald.

Montana's small mills ponder future of timber industry

COLUMBIA FALLS - From the gateway on Half Moon Road, F.H. Stoltze Land and Lumber looks a lot like it did in 1923.

missoulian.com

 

[44hunter45]

Great Thread, @BigHornRam

I would like to see some of these things happen.

I hear a Wood-Mizer calling to me. You can only run so much beetle kill through the wood stove.

 

[BigHornRam]

Dang liberal enviro wackos!

Cross-boundary forestry collaborative promotes more work on the ground

MONTANA – Governor Steve Bullock unveiled a new forestry stewardship partnership to address pressing needs in forest management across ownership boundaries. A new strategic, planning strategy Forests in Focus 2.0: A Cross-Boundary Collaborative Approach builds on the momentum of Bullock’s...

www.seeleylake.com

 

[diamond hitch]

The issue in my mind is not clear cutting (in lodgepole forests) but the size of the clearcuts. Wildlife favor mosaics with lots of margins in habitats. What works in the coastal forests where you can get a saw log in 75 years isn't comparable to a Montana cycle of 150 to 200 years in fir -larch forests. I remember evaluating huge clearcuts of the 60s where the cycle was so severly changed that many areas were so hot that the area went back to the brush/shrub stage rather growing trees. Many of those areas have yet to recover. I would like to see a justification of why we can't return to selective logging in acceptable environments.

In mining the technology and rules are in place for sustainable mineral development with minimal temporary impacts. Because of permitting delays (decades in some cases) it has been difficult to get financing for underground operations with backfill. The majority of the deposits are not suitable for mega-operations but rather medium underground targets which fit well with sustaining local rural community economics. As with timber, financing has been difficult as the investment side under the Harvard business model has pushed for massive short term investment and quarterly returns as opposed to long term investment and sustainable operations. The later being easier on local economies and more compatable with resource development. Open pits are a method that utilize lower grade ores but only down to about 1100 ft. Logistics and cost then forces them into underground operations if resources remain.

It would be nice if we could get back to science driven resource management as opposed the emotion and politics.

 

[Gerald Martin]

Good read for you Gerald.

Montana's small mills ponder future of timber industry

COLUMBIA FALLS - From the gateway on Half Moon Road, F.H. Stoltze Land and Lumber looks a lot like it did in 1923.

missoulian.com

It was a good read. This was an interesting paragraph.
“But at the heart of the fight lies an old credibility issue. Stoltze had to add a line for 5-inch logs because the 20th century saw rampant over-cutting of Montana's old-growth forests. The Forest Service reduced its Montana allowable sale quantity from about 800 million board-feet in 1970 to 100 million in 2015 because it faced the fact it was unsustainably over-harvesting the public trust.”

I am glad to see that the stewardship projects are being planned out in such a manner that is reducing the amount of litigation. Seems like a good thing to me.

 

[bullbugle307]

Why do you think clear cutting should be a "thing of the past"? That's a perfect lack of understanding about how some forests function properly.

In at least a couple of the most common Forest Types in Montana, and the Interior West, its not only acceptable, but prudent to utilize clear cutting.

I have to admit, when I was younger I thought clear cuts were an abomination. And I was taught like many others that fires were generally a terrible thing too. There was a lot I didn't understand about forestry and forest fires then. Just goes to show why us young know it all's need to seek out information from those that are willing to teach us where we may have been led astray.

 

[Gerald Martin]

In terms of the mining aspects of this plan , how do we ensure private insurance companies bond and guarantee reclamation and pay for potential environmental disasters?

Privatization of profits from public trust resources and allowing the taxpayer to bear the risk and costs of disasters that bankrupt the parent company is a crock in my opinion.

If the risk is too great for private insurance to bear the cost of cleanup on any project it shouldn’t get mined.

 

[Mallardsx2]

Always loved hunting a fresh clear-cut. In fact, thats where I have killed 95% of my deer over the years.

 

[Sytes]

Cross-boundary forestry collaborative promotes more work on the ground

MONTANA – Governor Steve Bullock unveiled a new forestry stewardship partnership to address pressing needs in forest management across ownership boundaries. A new strategic, planning strategy Forests in Focus 2.0: A Cross-Boundary Collaborative Approach builds on the momentum of Bullock’s...

www.seeleylake.com

Always been a supporter of the State Stewardship options that keep federal lands in American hands meanwhile enabling the States the same authority as with fish & game.

Would be great to see this activity increase.