The Future of “Big 3” Hunting in Montana.

[BuzzH]

Here's what I think, killing 300-400 goats from native populations probably was never a very good gdamn idea. Plus, there were people back then that recognized it, made suggestions/recommendations, and the FWP ignored it. Just like they always do, for everything.

Its also about 40 years too late to be worrying about it now.

 

[BuzzH]

I don't think that's something that can be quantified is it?

I'm not defending FWP's management. I'm just saying that when you have control populations that haven't been hunted also struggling, you can't 100% blame it on hunting.

IME, the places where hunting never happened and have struggling herds also have very little habitat...say, the Great Burn or the country around Superior. I think those goats have struggled forever as they're an isolated "Island" population.

Even then the FWP used to issue a few tags once in a while West of Superior and St. Regis.

If we they can squeeze another tag in somewhere, they most likely always do.

 

[MinnesotaHunter]

I don't think that's something that can be quantified is it?

I'm not defending FWP's management. I'm just saying that when you have control populations that haven't been hunted also struggling, you can't 100% blame it on hunting.

I read something a few years ago about stress in the wintering areas from snowmobiles and timber sleds. Anyone else seen studies on this negatively affecting mountain goats?

 

[Deleted member 48080]

IME, the places where hunting never happened and have struggling herds also have very little habitat...say, the Great Burn or the country around Superior. I think those goats have struggled forever as they're an isolated "Island" population.

Even then the FWP used to issue a few tags once in a while West of Superior and St. Regis.

If we they can squeeze another tag in somewhere, they most likely always do.

I was thinking about GNP, but I cannot find the data now that I thought existed showing their numbers in decline.

Honestly, it's hard to look at that data and defend hunting the native goats in MT at all.

 

[BuzzH]

I was thinking about GNP, but I cannot find the data now that I thought existed showing their numbers in decline.

Honestly, it's hard to look at that data and defend hunting the native goats in MT at all.

Its been a long time since I read it, but the data that I found was out of Canada. I wish I would have photo copied it (yes, pre-internet) found it at the UM Library when I was in college. No doubt I should have been studying something else, but...

IIRC, the study recommended not hunting isolated populations of goats at all with 60 or less goats. Populations around 100, maybe a goat a year, with extreme focus on only killing a single male. There was even recommendations of 1 male goat per 2-3 year period. They claimed those small populations could really not sustain any kind of nanny harvest at all.

Even in populations in the 200+ range, they suggested no nanny harvest if possible and very limited hunting of billies.

I believe that study was published in the 1960's or early 1970s.

 

[MinnesotaHunter]

any insight into the drops in tags for your moose?

here is a graph of our moose permits that cpw released. what's going on in montana to not be seeing something similar? it can't be wolves right? i don't buy the rhetoric that wolves are going to destroy our elk and moose populations. will they have an effect? i'm sure. but not decimate.

View attachment 275972

I did some looking into CO Moose out of curiosity a few years ago. A couple of things stuck out to me then, and I would be curious about others thoughts.

1. It seemed like there is little interface between CO's moose and whitetail deer. I have heard that whitetails are creeping up the valleys, but haven't reach the higher elevations where they moose are.
2. CO's high altitudes have lower summer temps that are more conducive to the moose, and colder winter temps that have a chance of knocking back parasite loads.

 

[rogerthat]

Honest question(not trying to be a smart ass) why is the distinction between a native goat and an introduced goat notable? Why would introduced goats be doing better than native goats?

 

[BuzzH]

I read something a few years ago about stress in the wintering areas from snowmobiles and timber sleds. Anyone else seen studies on this negatively affecting mountain goats?

I have, its mentioned in the linked Montana study on this thread. I've read it elsewhere as well. The thing about that I struggle with as a primary reason, is that goats have likely been on a decline much longer than the time frame where snowmachines would have a large impact.

The snow machines, even in the 80's-90's weren't close to the type of machines there are now. In other words, I think any impacts on the long-term goat populations would be much higher now then in the past. I think 2 reasons for that, not much snowmobile traffic in the past for one, and two the machines just couldn't get to places like they can now.

I'm certainly not discounting the impact then or now that increased backcountry travel has, however. I just think the number 1 reason by far for the decline is over hunting for too long, combined with hunters not selecting billies.

It's most likely a combination of factors, but some of the easiest to control, we never have...or at least not until its too late.

 

[TOGIE]

I did some looking into CO Moose out of curiosity a few years ago. A couple of things stuck out to me then, and I would be curious about others thoughts.

1. It seemed like there is little interface between CO's moose and whitetail deer. I have heard that whitetails are creeping up the valleys, but haven't reach the higher elevations where they moose are.
2. CO's high altitudes have lower summer temps that are more conducive to the moose, and colder winter temps that have a chance of knocking back parasite loads.

as far as the white tail/moose interface in colorado, yeah it's negligible in the big picture. most of those mountain valleys with white tails have otc white tail tags anyway, i suspect it will remain negligible.

i did already know our moose were introduced in colorado in the 70's, though wasn't sure how much of a role that is continuing to play in their expansion. from what i can tell, they're damn near the only species in our state that you could say is basically doing "great"

we do have an enormous amount of good habitat and yes, a lot of good habitat for moose to still move into as well - that was a good point from earlier.

 

[Nameless Range]

IME, the places where hunting never happened and have struggling herds also have very little habitat...say, the Great Burn or the country around Superior. I think those goats have struggled forever as they're an isolated "Island" population.

According to a friend who owns what I think is the highest private property in the range, there are 3 Mountain Goats left in the Elkhorns. In 2017 they counted 5. Not native, but still sad to me. If the science says that putting goats where they historically were not won't work, we shouldn't waste our time. That said, if there's even a risky chance, I would appreciate the effort - if only to supplant native struggling populations.

https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Distribution-of-extant-native-and-introduced-populations-of-mountain-goats-in-Montana_fig1_336240239

 

[brockel]

Wasn’t fwp giving out like 30+ nanny tags for the crazies for a couple years?

 

[BuzzH]

According to a friend who owns what I think is the highest private property in the range, there are 3 Mountain Goats left in the Elkhorns. In 2017 they counted 5. Not native, but still sad to me. If the science says that putting goats where they historically were not won't work, we shouldn't waste our time. That said, if there's even a risky chance, I would appreciate the effort - if only to supplant native struggling populations.

https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Distribution-of-extant-native-and-introduced-populations-of-mountain-goats-in-Montana_fig1_336240239

View attachment 276106

Introduced populations usually do pretty well.

Supplementing native populations doesn't typically do any good.

 

[MinnesotaHunter]

I have, its mentioned in the linked Montana study on this thread. I've read it elsewhere as well. The thing about that I struggle with as a primary reason, is that goats have likely been on a decline much longer than the time frame where snowmachines would have a large impact.

The snow machines, even in the 80's-90's weren't close to the type of machines there are now. In other words, I think any impacts on the long-term goat populations would be much higher now then in the past. I think 2 reasons for that, not much snowmobile traffic in the past for one, and two the machines just couldn't get to places like they can now.

I'm certainly not discounting the impact then or now that increased backcountry travel has, however. I just think the number 1 reason by far for the decline is over hunting for too long, combined with hunters not selecting billies.

It's most likely a combination of factors, but some of the easiest to control, we never have...or at least not until its too late.

As you alluded, I think there are likely a host of reasons, all of which humans likely drive that are dragging them down. Most animals on the fringe of their species range tend to be vulnerable to shifts in the ecosystem. Goats seem particularly so given their extremely slow fecundity.

I remember reading an article in the backcountry journal a few years ago where a guy killed a nanny in MT, and I was put off by the seeming rationalization of killing that critical animal. I have also seen social media posts from prominent members of the RMGA who were riding their timber bikes up into goat wintering areas in the middle of winter, and when I messaged them heard crickets. I am not saying that either of these examples were death blows to goats, but I both left me wondering how much people think about the consequences of their actions....

 

[Bambistew]

Killing nannies doesn't do a population any favors. Compound that, and you can quickly make a population unsustainable IMO, either through hunting or predation. All goat tags should be billy only.

Thanks for posting the maps @Randy11 I couldn't remember the entire range, just recalled that the majority of the goats lived around GNP or in the NW corner. I didn't realize there was native herds in the Pioneers and Root. I wonder what those populations were like, if they were robust, or just spill over/remnant populations?

There is talk of climate change being an issue, but we've been transitioning out of the last ice age since goats arrived, at some point their habitat and ideal conditions peaked in their southern range, and they had no where to go, but decline. If you overlay rainfall depths to native goat ranges, you'll see that most of the areas they were transplanted are quite dry comparatively as well.

 

[Deleted member 48080]

Killing nannies doesn't do a population any favors. Compound that, and you can quickly make a population unsustainable IMO, either through hunting or predation. All goat tags should be billy only.

Thanks for posting the maps @Randy11 I couldn't remember the entire range, just recalled that the majority of the goats lived around GNP or in the NW corner. I didn't realize there was native herds in the Pioneers and Root. I wonder what those populations were like, if they were robust, or just spill over/remnant populations?

There is talk of climate change being an issue, but we've been transitioning out of the last ice age since goats arrived, at some point their habitat and ideal conditions peaked in their southern range, and they had no where to go, but decline. If you overlay rainfall depths to native goat ranges, you'll see that most of the areas they were transplanted are quite dry comparatively as well.


View attachment 276108

The main Bitterroot range is incredible goat habitat. I'll try to dig up the numbers, but there were years they counted like 1500+ goats in there. Hunters killed ~50 per year for decades.

In the winter I can glass goat country from my house. In the 12 years I've been here the drop in population has been notable. I think they're estimating under 100 now.

 

[BuckRut]

My only add to this would be how good of a job is the FWP doing counting these animals? Are population numbers what's really driving the tag numbers? I know of one unit at the moment that issues 0 goat tags and there is definitely a sustainable population in there but the FWP won't go count them.

 

[atlas]

Thanks for posting the maps @Randy11 I couldn't remember the entire range, just recalled that the majority of the goats lived around GNP or in the NW corner. I didn't realize there was native herds in the Pioneers and Root. I wonder what those populations were like, if they were robust, or just spill over/remnant populations?

I've been slowly reading "Indian Trails and Grizzly Tales" by Bud Cheff. He started the Indian Museum at Nine Pipes and I think his family might still running it.

There were many times throughout his life detailed in the book, that they packed into the Missions and shot goats. Based on his anecdotal evidence the goat population and the elk population for that matter seemed to be pretty robust in the Missions back in the day.

 

[Deleted member 48080]

The main Bitterroot range is incredible goat habitat. I'll try to dig up the numbers, but there were years they counted like 1500+ goats in there. Hunters killed ~50 per year for decades.

In the winter I can glass goat country from my house. In the 12 years I've been here the drop in population has been notable. I think they're estimating under 100 now.

Well I didn't have any luck finding the survey I had in mind, but I did find a couple other interesting articles.

 

[atlas]

wow

 

[atlas]

Doing a bit more reading on goats here https://myfwp.mt.gov/getRepositoryFile?objectID=98193

hile today’s mountain goat distribution in Region 2 broadly resembles their distribution in 1947, this result is due, in part, to the correction of mistakes made in harvest strategies before mountain goat ecology was better understood. In Region 2, mountain goats have been reintroduced in the Rattlesnake Wilderness and the Scapegoat Wilderness to restore extirpated populations.

The first mountain goat transplant to really reintroduce and restore an extirpated population to its native habitat was led by Dr. Bart O’Gara, Leader of the Montana Cooperative Wildlife Research Unit at the University of Montana. It was February 1984.

The National Bison Range wanted to move goats off the range. Rattlesnake Creek, near Missoula, was empty because of overharvest. The Forest Service had closed the road for the new National Wilderness and Recreation area. Bart was learning how to use the netgun and very interested in mountain goats. FWP agreed to the project. And along came Mutual of Omaha's Wild Kingdom TV program that wanted to do a show and was willing to pay for it.

It was a perfect storm. Netgunning was new, and this was the first attempt at netgunning mountain goats in Montana. It was really a big experiment that unfolded on national television. I think they are still there in the Rattlesnake.

Do you know? -Robert Henderson, FWP Wildlife Biologist, retired Yes - Les Marcum saw 8 goats from Beeskove meadow a couple of weeks ago (early June 2020), and FWP Warden Derek Schott saw 6 a couple days before that. Most years we count around 5 or so. A lasting legacy for sure! -Liz Bradley, FWP Wildlife Biologist, Missoula