Take Back Your Elk

[NMGuy]

2,638 of the 15,356 EPlus authorizations are for unit wide tags. 17.1%.

So 82.9% of them are ranch only.

So move UW tags into the draw. It won't be much of a bump in draw odds but every little bit helps. Make ranch only tags non-transferrable or sellable to residents only. That won't make BHA and NMWF happy because they want those tags in the draw.

If we moved those 10,718 tags worth of hunting pressure off of ranches and into public land, would that not just push the elk onto private even more?

After that, bump up the price of a resident elk tag by double (or more) to make up for the lost revenue of 15,356 tags that mostly go to NR for $548-$773? I can hear the squealing already.

 

[Valley1320]

So idk I'm not real smart when it comes to this stuff but the part I don't like is a UW tag being sold off of a especially a small piece of private and whoever buys that tag gets to hunt the whole national with it when that tag was a original for a private land owner, which I know then anyone with a draw tag can hunt his land. But who's gonna go hunt is 20acres or his 50 acres when you got a whole unit of public that is prime land when his lil piece of private is on the edge of it? Also I know there are way bigger pieces of land that are in the UW deal... And I dont really care to see them cut the regular nonresident draw cuz that just hurts you NRs that are just like me and can't afford the high paying hunts. I say cut outfitter draw tags out and throw it in the regular draw. And make these UW tags where they can only be hunted on private land that is in the UW program and make it Unit Wide Private Land Only.

 

[Valley1320]

Youall can shoot that all to pieces if you want. Cuz like I said I'm not the smartest when it comes to stuff like that

 

[MTGomer]

The thing I take away most from the New Mexico situation is that once you privatize elk there’s a hell of a lot of arguments to keep it that way from a hell of a lot of people.

Same here. That’s why I think it’s so important Montana never goes this way.
Once an industry is built around something, it means taking the ability to pay the mortgage and feed the kids away from people, if the industry ends. Better to not build that dependency to begin with.

 

[hank4elk]

So idk I'm not real smart when it comes to this stuff but the part I don't like is a UW tag being sold off of a especially a small piece of private and whoever buys that tag gets to hunt the whole national with it when that tag was a original for a private land owner, which I know then anyone with a draw tag can hunt his land. But who's gonna go hunt is 20acres or his 50 acres when you got a whole unit of public that is prime land when his lil piece of private is on the edge of it? Also I know there are way bigger pieces of land that are in the UW deal... And I dont really care to see them cut the regular nonresident draw cuz that just hurts you NRs that are just like me and can't afford the high paying hunts. I say cut outfitter draw tags out and throw it in the regular draw. And make these UW tags where they can only be hunted on private land that is in the UW program and make it Unit Wide Private Land Only.

Me.
I'm gonna just hunt my land with a late Dec., unit wide ,draw tag. For the 3rd year. My choice. My giving back to others the use of the surrounding public patches a chance.

This morning there are 2 camps set up on public land nearby. I can see the white trailers in the pinions this morning. Not there yesterday.
They know about the elk that come here to the water here and most likely heard the bulls last night.
Up wind of me, so the elk will come this way when they leave...

The local gal will have a good time I hope.

My rancher neighbors hate elk and antelope, literally, and they like that the critters focus on my land at night and take them off their places some. Or so they have told me. They still hate the elk and antelope.

When this land was settled the original elk had been wiped out by the Army at the turn of the century. Until 1950 reintroduction of Rocky Mtn elk, and the 1st hunts for elk in NM again was 1978.
Just some history.

90/10 R/NR split.
No outfitter pool.
E-plus with all RO and 90/10 split.
Residents step up and support wildlife with $.

I know. I'm living the dream. And I have Hope.

 

[2rocky]

American Farmers/Ranchers and Rural African communities are similar in the fact that you have to give them a financial incentive to value wildlife, because otherwise, they are just a net loss for them.

I'll bet if you looked hard RMEF has some programs with landowners as well. You gonna ask them to pick up the slack to give incentives to landowners to create and maintain habitat? I've alway told environmental groups I've spoken to that you have to have ECONOMIC sustainability before you can have ENVIRONMENTAL Sustainability. Folks don't think of the future long term when they are trying to survive. And believe me, the MAJORITY of the 1.5% of the population in Agriculture are seriously just trying to survive financially.

I'm getting tired of folks painting all landowners as rich assholes who want to rape and pillage their little empire. Just as I'm tired of landowners thinking hunters are whiny prima donnas who cut fences and leave gates open. Yes there are a few of each of them that earned that image but don't paint with a broad brush. Jordan Anderson said it well when he said group identity politics only creates more polarization. When you look at this issue that is borne out.

 

[sjl2012]

I can't see large private landowners just letting residents come into their land and hunt, even for a trespass fee, which I would guess 90% of the residents couldn't afford. New Mexico has some of the trashiest public lands in the country, Cibola being #1. I don't think the NR's just decide to leave their trash in campsites or on the side of the roads in New Mexico and not other states.

Talk to a resident that complains of not drawing a tag but once in ten years and ask them about their application. There's a large group that their application every year is 36, 34, 16x all first rifle. And they wonder why they're not drawing a tag. The residents that have educated themselves and read the odds reports draw tags and are successful. In my mind these are the people pushing to do away with eplus. If they're drawing tags they're not complaining about or concerned with what Hank is doing with his tag. Honestly, with the current system a New Mexico resident has a better opportunity at hunting a top tier unit that residents in AZ, CO, or UT. If you do away with Eplus and the Outfitter pool more than likely you get the push to go to a point system similar to other states.

New Mexico is a very poor state per capita. Take away tags, property values go down. There's also a 7% tax on the sale of the tags and all outfitters that is generated, if done legally. Even though they're flush with tax money from their #1 resource due to high prices this year, oil and gas, that goes in cycles and will probably turn downward with slowing production . There are large consequences financially for New Mexico residents to doing away with EPLUS.

Call it privatization, call it free trade, whatever you want but someone has to pay for the free things everyone seems to want these days and the eplus system is a big part of how NM does it for wildlife. I've hunted draw, UW, outfitter, and RO tags in the last 26 years and for me the current system works. I love New Mexico, vacation and hunt there every year and I personally like the system just the way it is, especially after reading that piece of one sided propaganda.

 

[Nameless Range]

I sympathize with NWMF and the residents of NM who aren't landowners. Part of this is I see many of the same arguments to sustain the eplus program being brought forth in Montana in favor of privatization, and though I am not an expert on the landscape and wildlife of NM - in Montana, those ideas would be disastrous and would bring forth the destruction of the democratization of hunting to the populace. Maybe NM is different.

Part of the discussion revolves around the subject of what a public trust is. Even acknowledging that, deeper and as foundational are what are the trust's mission and values. You ever been a trustee? I have for both small family trusts and that of a fire department that spends a lot of money. Saying that something is a trust doesn't inform you on what your role as a trustee is until you have those two following statements lined out clearly. If the mission is to do something like "maximize wildlife and habitat and the economic benefits thereof" then maybe the eplus program makes sense. But if it is what I see it as here in Montana, a very very important portion of which is to not stray too far from the NAM and its tenets, one of which is "Equal opportunity in the drawing process", then the eplus program fails the trust - and that seems to be the case NMWF is making. And so from the outside looking in, it seems those in favor and those opposed talk past one another. Can the mission of a public trust be written in pencil? Can the people change its purpose? I don't know.

Just some thoughts. I am not capable of wading in to the New Mexico model.I don't know enough. Admittedly, these statements in favor make me nervous, because as I said before, here in Montana, the implementation of them would lead to the end of something virtuous - that being Montanans, regardless of land ownership, economic class, etc, all have a fairly equitable opportunity at hunting their wildlife. I think that is so beautiful and I want it to remain.

 

[morley.tyler]

Holleee smokes! I just looked up the cost of a landowner tag and you could get 13 acres paid off pretty quick with the going rate for those things.

This is EXACTLY what I was thinking. 13 acres does not seem to be too heavy of a lift... What is the bottom threshold for getting a Landowner tag?

 

[Irrelevant]

Yes, but those 11,000+ landowner and outfitter tags going to nonresidents generate $650ish probably on average for the department of game and fish. The same tags going to residents would generate $90. Well over $5,000,000 more for the game and fish selling them to nonresidents.

If it's about money and only money, then all the tags should go to the highest bidder, R or NR doesn't matter. Then we'd turn a public resource and a public trust manager into a commodity and profiteer for the benefit of whom?

I thought the NAM was a rebuttal to the feudal system not a one upper.

 

[npaden]

I didn't say it was about money. I was just pointing out that you need to add NMDGF to the list of parties more than likely happy with the status quo. They would need to figure out a way to overcome the revenue shortfall if the current system was changed.

It is a long uphill battle vs. landowners, outfitters and the department of game and fish to change the current system that they are all perfectly happy with. The first two on that list seem to have a disproportionate representation with the state legislatures with nearly every western state.

 

[npaden]

To throw some more fuel on the fire, the "Ranch Only" tags are not Private Land Only tags as far as I know. They are based on the ranch boundaries in the EPlus application and I am pretty sure that any state or BLM leased lands within the ranch boundaries can be hunted with the landowner tags.

That isn't the case with the Deer and Antelope private land only tags, they are only valid on deeded private land.

 

[Pucky Freak]

If the mission is to do something like "maximize wildlife and habitat and the economic benefits thereof" then maybe the eplus program makes sense.

My beef w/ NM and any similar program in another state is the benefits of the trust are often funneled to special interests rather than to ALL residents. Outfitters, landowners, politicians that get contributions from them, and their allies get huge slices of the pie while a non-hunting urbanite of Santa Fe gets what? If the elk belong to all, there should be trust administration that ensures all benefit. But the trustees overwhelmingly sold out for personal gain, and now a “reasonable” change threatens the “essential” mini-economy of the part of ranching/outfitting fed on a public trust

 

[Beignet]

This is EXACTLY what I was thinking. 13 acres does not seem to be too heavy of a lift... What is the bottom threshold for getting a Landowner tag?

Halfsies? We might even be able to get a whole 14 acres.

 

[NMGuy]

If the mission is to do something like "maximize wildlife and habitat and the economic benefits thereof" then maybe the eplus program makes sense. B

Just for reference, the NMGF Mission: "It is the mission of New Mexico’s Game and Fish Department: “To conserve, regulate, propagate and protect the wildlife and fish within the state of New Mexico using a flexible management system that ensures sustainable use for public food supply, recreation and safety; and to provide for off-highway motor vehicle recreation that recognizes cultural, historic, and resource values while ensuring public safety."

 

[morley.tyler]

Halfsies? We might even be able to get a whole 14 acres.

If 14 gets us two tags, we've got a deal!

 

[npaden]

As someone who has been looking at recreational property for several years in several states including New Mexico, you can bet that elk tag(s) are included in the pricing and marketing of those properties.

 

[Oak]

The thing I take away most from the New Mexico situation is that once you privatize elk there’s a hell of a lot of arguments to keep it that way from a hell of a lot of people.

I was participating in a stakeholder meeting re: allocation back in 2015 or so (because we've discussed it forever and haven't done anything yet), and was struck by a comment from a rancher/farmer that went unchallenged. He said that any discussion about reducing the landowner allocation in the state was off the table, because that would constitute a taking by the government.

 

[hank4elk]

This is EXACTLY what I was thinking. 13 acres does not seem to be too heavy of a lift... What is the bottom threshold for getting a Landowner tag?

The newest(finally) science used and the grading system of applicants into the E-plus program have been set and there are standards. Now after the rewriting/modifications were made 4 years ago. Due for it again soon. That has brought this subject back up.
My unit ,12, was the one that got hit hard by the new regs.

The selling of elk tags with property went out and there are some still trying. You have to apply and meet standards yearly.
Land prices are not what they were pre-pandemic. So no garunteeed tags.
Small properties would have to have water, a stream ,lake or a meadow to qualify now in my unit. No more 20-60ac places in the list and if they are still they would have to meet the grade. Water is a main factor in NM. 80-640 ac is small.

The applications for E-plus and the application for the Elk Habitat encentive program are on the G&F website.
60 ac is about the smallest in my unit now and I was placed in Small Contributing Ranch program,as it is a small ranch.
When I applied I tried to see what I could push and what was accepted. Told them what they wanted to hear and see. I had done gradings for the county and for the FS before and now how it works.
I thought I would meet the 6 points minimum and maybe being generous to myself 11. 14 is tops.
I got a 9 with the encentive bonus, which I meet too. No cattle nor AG exemptions on it now and the water runs year round , fence modifications is how I meet it.
I pay 10 times what I did in property taxes now too, $500 yearly+ now, $5 a year before...................and all sales are taxed by state and it ads to my income and changes my Fed. taxes.

I give them away now. I'm making out like a bandit...LOL

This year I got 1 MB in the SCR lottery and 2 ES and 1A authorizations in the encentive program.
I don't bow hunt and would be happy with just cows.


Until NMG&F applies the same science and regrade all the ranches in all the units, there will be no new changes from my perspective.

 

[abqbw]

When I was there hunting my draw elk tag, I was surprised how many people had or knew someone who had an elk tag for sale. Between the Indian tribes and private tags for sale, the well heeled elk hunter should be able to hunt New Mexico whenever he or she wants.

HankinNM is in the thick of it and can give the landowner perspective. I'd trust him to be impartial or fair...

“The well healed hunter should be able to hunt elk whenever he or she wants”.

Have you ever even heard of the public trust doctrine and the North American Model of Wildlife Conservation?

What an idiotic comment.