I understand the sentiment. But although our tags are extremely difficult to draw, NM is one of the cheapest states to apply in and if you draw the hunting can be fabulous. Especially for elk. Also, absent any sort of preference or bonus system you are always on equal footing with everyone else in your applicant class. I encourage nonresidents to always apply in NM for these reasons.
Take Back Your Elk
- Thread starter Oak
- Start date
It’s over 15,000 tags elk tags between the outfitter set aside and EPLUS that are privatized. 15,356. 13,803 EPLUS and 1,553 outfitter draw set aside. That is out of a total of elk tags of 36,161 tags. 75.1% of privatized tags are nonresident. For bull tags, 84,9% are nonresident, 95.8% of outfitter bull tags and 83.2% of EPLUS bull tags.
Us New Mexicans are more than happy to share a healthy share of our elk tags with nonresidents. But not via a system that is based on wealth because it is private.
npaden
Well-known member
I think this might be a good example of how things go when you reduce the DIY Nonresidents to 6% of the tags and then twist the knife even further with the crappy "we don't round anymore so you don't get a single tag" in quite a few different draws. Take away any draw opportunity for cow elk and even better don't let nonresidents hunt on state WMA's that their license money paid for.
Sorry to sound jaded, but New Mexico has pretty much already figured out how to stick it to the DIY nonresident so they are left with the mess that they created. DIY nonresidents can whine and complain all they want but the state legislatures are going to listen to outfitters and landowners, not an out of state DIY hunter that gets to hunt once every 4 or 5 years in their state if they are lucky.
Sorry to sound jaded, but New Mexico has pretty much already figured out how to stick it to the DIY nonresident so they are left with the mess that they created. DIY nonresidents can whine and complain all they want but the state legislatures are going to listen to outfitters and landowners, not an out of state DIY hunter that gets to hunt once every 4 or 5 years in their state if they are lucky.
There is no bottom size threashold for a property to receive a landowner elk permit. Scrolling through the EPLUS landowner list (available on NMDGF’s website) I counted 80 “ranches” of 10 acres or less that received EPLUS private landowner permits. The smallest is 3 acres. I’ve seen EPLUS permits go to 2 acre properties in the past. There are many more than the 80 that are between 11-20 acres. And a huge number that are 40 acres are less.
Agreed, pretty easy for an outfitter or landowner to break off a little of the tag money they are getting and slip it into a legislators pocket and keep the status quo.
I want to put in for NM elk due to the lack of point system but these tag shenanigans are what keep me out
The sticking it to nonresidents and residents of average means alike occurs because of privatization. EPLUS and the outfitter set aside. For instance the 6% unguided nonresident draw quota is really only 3.6% of total elk tags because of the outfitter set aside and EPLUS. 62.5% (10/16) of elk tags that survive EPLUS and make it to the draw that are available to nonresidents are reserved for nonresidents that contract with an outfitter. If you draw an outfitter set aside tag the outfitter you contracted with owns your hunting opportunity. You can only hunt with a different outfitter than the one that owns your contract if they release you. And you can’t hunt on that tag without the outfitters permission. And by rule that outfitter or their guide has to be with you for two days of the hunt.
Lol. Yes. They have been saying up is down and down is up in feeble attempts to justify the graft that rewards them so handsomely. Why not. It’s human nature to defend something that rewards you, whether it is justifiable or not.
utah400elk
Well-known member
The fatal flaw in the system is the money IMO. The question would be, are the NM residents willing to pay the market price for the tags? There is absolutely nothing stopping NM residents from buying all the landowner tags and leave the NRs to the draw…
The real question is then, are the residents of NM willing to pay to outbid the NR for the NM tags. I don’t like the system at all, I wish they would go to a straight 10% draw and make LO tags personal use only. But, I don’t have a day and can only play by NM rules.
Long story short…Hate the game and not the players.
The real question is then, are the residents of NM willing to pay to outbid the NR for the NM tags. I don’t like the system at all, I wish they would go to a straight 10% draw and make LO tags personal use only. But, I don’t have a day and can only play by NM rules.
Long story short…Hate the game and not the players.
I think I’m this case you can hate some of the players mainly the tag brokers and influencers that rely on these tags to make a living off a public resource
I think the point of all of this is to change the game. NM residents shouldn't have to "outbid" non-residents for tags. The "market price" for tags should be the price NM G&F sets for the regular draw. The whole point of this effort is to modify or eliminate the system that has created the market you're referencing.
N
That’s kind of a disingenuous read - that New Mexicans can just buy all the private tags. That is a ridiculous assertion on its face. First, why should we be forced to buy that which we already own, our wildlife. Second, the economic reality. The hunters among the 2 million population that is New Mexicans will never be able to outspend/outbid the hunters among the 327 million Americans that are not New Mexicans. That the private elk tags are vast majority nonresident is not because they are nonresidents, it is because that is where the wealth to buy tags on a private market exists. In fact this is not a resident vs nonresident issue per se. It is about do we really want a system where the opportunity to hunt is determined by wealth and ability to pay. I don’t think so. The public trust doctrine and the North American Model of Wildlife Conservation explicitly say otherwise.
npaden
Well-known member
You note the % of the EPlus bull tags are going to nonresidents, what is the % of cow elk tags available to nonresidents in the draw? What was that? Zero, nada, ziltch? Cow tags aren't anything about the wealthy nonresidents but New Mexico is sticking it to the nonresidents on those as well.
That and the State WMA's being off limits to nonresidents really chaps me, but not as bad as the no rounding thing that NMWF pushed through a couple years ago. Taking 8 out of 10 tags for residents wasn't enough, lets make sure the DIY nonresident doesn't get a single tag on the smaller draw allotments and say that they can't round .6 tags up to 1 so the residents get 9 out of 10 tags and the outfitters get the other one. I think if you run your math on that you will find that the "claimed" 6% of tags for nonresident DIY hunters ends up less than 5% because all the tags lost to rounding. I'm pretty sure in antelope youth tags I think there is 1 DIY nonresident youth tag available in the entire state because of the rounding now.
The whole "Resident hunters who used to draw elk licenses consistently now commonly get skunked in the draw for years in a row. They can no longer count on getting together with friends and family at elk camp." line at the start of the propaganda pamphlet is a crock as there are more resident draw tags now than there was at any point in the last 15 years. On the backs of the DIY nonresident hunter.
Other lines like "New Mexico’s allocation of over 35 percent of elk licenses to nonresidents in 2021 places our state far out of step with other states in the West that staunchly protect their resident hunters in the public draw. For example, Arizona for years has restricted nonresidents to drawing no more than 10 percent of the licenses for elk and other game species." are just flat misleading. New Mexico has restricted nonresidents to drawing no more than 6 percent of the licenses for elk and other game species!
The entire thing is a hit piece on nonresident hunters. If you want to do a hit piece on privatization and outfitter set asides that would be fine, just don't hammer nonresidents because the state of New Mexico has privatized elk, deer and antelope hunting and is giving it out to the highest bidder. I guess it is 100% fine if a evil wealthy resident hunter buys a tag, just not if it is a nonresident?
Oh well, not sure what caused me to trigger on this today, I guess it has bothered me more than I thought.
That and the State WMA's being off limits to nonresidents really chaps me, but not as bad as the no rounding thing that NMWF pushed through a couple years ago. Taking 8 out of 10 tags for residents wasn't enough, lets make sure the DIY nonresident doesn't get a single tag on the smaller draw allotments and say that they can't round .6 tags up to 1 so the residents get 9 out of 10 tags and the outfitters get the other one. I think if you run your math on that you will find that the "claimed" 6% of tags for nonresident DIY hunters ends up less than 5% because all the tags lost to rounding. I'm pretty sure in antelope youth tags I think there is 1 DIY nonresident youth tag available in the entire state because of the rounding now.
The whole "Resident hunters who used to draw elk licenses consistently now commonly get skunked in the draw for years in a row. They can no longer count on getting together with friends and family at elk camp." line at the start of the propaganda pamphlet is a crock as there are more resident draw tags now than there was at any point in the last 15 years. On the backs of the DIY nonresident hunter.
Other lines like "New Mexico’s allocation of over 35 percent of elk licenses to nonresidents in 2021 places our state far out of step with other states in the West that staunchly protect their resident hunters in the public draw. For example, Arizona for years has restricted nonresidents to drawing no more than 10 percent of the licenses for elk and other game species." are just flat misleading. New Mexico has restricted nonresidents to drawing no more than 6 percent of the licenses for elk and other game species!
The entire thing is a hit piece on nonresident hunters. If you want to do a hit piece on privatization and outfitter set asides that would be fine, just don't hammer nonresidents because the state of New Mexico has privatized elk, deer and antelope hunting and is giving it out to the highest bidder. I guess it is 100% fine if a evil wealthy resident hunter buys a tag, just not if it is a nonresident?
Oh well, not sure what caused me to trigger on this today, I guess it has bothered me more than I thought.
On rounding, over 90% of the times tags were rounded the rounded up tag went to a nonresident and the majority of the time extra unpublished tag that game and fish created out of thin air pushed residents below the statutory minimum of 84%. I was who identified this and pushed to eliminate rounding. They even created special rounded up bighorn tags for nonresident outfitted clients. And am unabashedly unapologetic. New Mexico is fairly unique in that our nonresident quotas are set asides and not up to limits. The way our commission handled the rounding is typical. When there is a policy choice between residents and nonresidents, especially outfitted nonresidents our commission pushes the limits and even exceeds the law in favor of outfitters and nonresidents. Every other western state pushes the limits of the law on behalf of their residents.
Let’s explore the cow permits that you have your panties in a wad about. Why are draw cow tags resident only? It is a feeble attempt to appease New Mexico residents because so many of our elk tags are stolen from us by EPLUS and the outfitter set aside. It is an insult. In effect the game commission and legislature are saying bull tags are too valuable for the unwashed New Mexico residents. Take your cow tags and shut up. Bulls are for wealthy hunters.
Cow tags also show what a joke draw quota statutes are made by EPLUS. It is true that by statute draw cow tags are resident only. But EPLUS tags are highest bidder on the private market. Even for cow tags the majority of EPLUS licenses go to nonresidents. 57.2% of EPLUS cow tags are sold to nonresidents.
You do make a good point. It is difficult to illustrate that the primary issue is wealth based hunting. “Nonresident” unfortunately becomes an unintentional proxy for wealth based opportunity because any tag system based on wealth is going to be dominated by nonresidents because of simple swamping by the number of nonresidents compared to residents. While we New Mexicans are very offended to the overall percentage of our elk tags that are awarded to nonresidents, it is the fact that this is so because it is a wealth based allocation that we find, by far, to be offense. That the private tags are majority nonresidents is a symptom of privatization. We could have done a better job of explaining this.
Make no mistake. We absolutely want more unguided public draw nonresident elk hunting in New Mexico. Personally if all elk tags were in the drawing I would be fine if up to 15% to 20% were allocated to unguided nonresidents as long as the outfitter set aside is also eliminated. As it is New Mexicans endure one of the lowest resident draw quotas in the west, this after the huge skim of EPLUS before tags even are subjected to the draw. I don’t think we are greedy or it is untoward of us to desire and work for system that is more equitable for the average resident and nonresident alike.
Consider that only 54.5% of all of New Mexico’s elk tags end up in the hands of a resident that has not paid a private individual, an outfitter or landowner to obtain the tag. If anyone wants to tell me that residents of any other state would be satisfied with that and wouldn’t cause a stink I would call them either grossly misinformed or a liar.
Let’s explore the cow permits that you have your panties in a wad about. Why are draw cow tags resident only? It is a feeble attempt to appease New Mexico residents because so many of our elk tags are stolen from us by EPLUS and the outfitter set aside. It is an insult. In effect the game commission and legislature are saying bull tags are too valuable for the unwashed New Mexico residents. Take your cow tags and shut up. Bulls are for wealthy hunters.
Cow tags also show what a joke draw quota statutes are made by EPLUS. It is true that by statute draw cow tags are resident only. But EPLUS tags are highest bidder on the private market. Even for cow tags the majority of EPLUS licenses go to nonresidents. 57.2% of EPLUS cow tags are sold to nonresidents.
You do make a good point. It is difficult to illustrate that the primary issue is wealth based hunting. “Nonresident” unfortunately becomes an unintentional proxy for wealth based opportunity because any tag system based on wealth is going to be dominated by nonresidents because of simple swamping by the number of nonresidents compared to residents. While we New Mexicans are very offended to the overall percentage of our elk tags that are awarded to nonresidents, it is the fact that this is so because it is a wealth based allocation that we find, by far, to be offense. That the private tags are majority nonresidents is a symptom of privatization. We could have done a better job of explaining this.
Make no mistake. We absolutely want more unguided public draw nonresident elk hunting in New Mexico. Personally if all elk tags were in the drawing I would be fine if up to 15% to 20% were allocated to unguided nonresidents as long as the outfitter set aside is also eliminated. As it is New Mexicans endure one of the lowest resident draw quotas in the west, this after the huge skim of EPLUS before tags even are subjected to the draw. I don’t think we are greedy or it is untoward of us to desire and work for system that is more equitable for the average resident and nonresident alike.
Consider that only 54.5% of all of New Mexico’s elk tags end up in the hands of a resident that has not paid a private individual, an outfitter or landowner to obtain the tag. If anyone wants to tell me that residents of any other state would be satisfied with that and wouldn’t cause a stink I would call them either grossly misinformed or a liar.
New Mexico sticks it to both resident and nonresident DIY draw hunters. The system is built to and does disenfranchise all of us DIY hunters that have to draw wo paying a private individual to hunt.
utah400elk
Well-known member
I said I would prefer NM go to a system like the other states…I specifically said “I wish they would go to a straight 10% draw and make LO tags personal use only.” However, the land owners are not going to allow free access to their property. They are still going to charge a fee. If NM wants to give the tags to the residents…good by me. I don’t have a dog in the fight. I also don’t really care what NM does with their elk tags. I have had a few phenomenal hunts in NM and met some of the absolute best people anywhere. The tag prices have had crazy jumps in prices and I no longer see the value at over 10K for a voucher (Unit 15). I remember years back when a gentleman (using the term lightly) shot a bunch of elk in 15 because they were raiding his orchard. He wanted more bull tags to sell to or he was going to keep killing the elk. You say this is not a Resident/Non-Resident thing but you specifically
I wish the NM residents the best. Would love to see them with all the tags they desire. However, this endeavor/thread/idea will not go anywhere without replacing the revenue stream. If tag prices stabilize, then I will buy a landowner voucher…if not I will apply or go to a different state. I have no say regarding NM tag allocation.
That said…the “ Take Back Your Elk” referenced in the start of this thread is specifically about NR getting too many NM elk tags. So this is exactly a resident vs nonresident issue per se. I do agree that this is a violation of the North American Wildlife model and I don’t think this is right. I also think that taking half the NR tags and giving outfitters a welfare handout is a direct violation of the same wildlife model. Hence…go to a straight 10% and stop the tag transfer program.
Topdog
New member
- Joined
- Oct 13, 2022
- Messages
- 26
Being a somewhat newer New Mexican (about 8 years) I have seen some shady stuff. Some things are probably the same no matter what state your in. Like, ATV,UTS on hiking only trailers, all the litter left behind from hikers etc..
one of the worst was a couple of years ago I teamed up with a friend to hunt an Ibex nanny in the Floridian mountains. After a few days on the big mountains we decided to go and try the little Floridian mountains which I have hunted before. Upon arriving there we saw a game and fish vehicle so we pulled over for a chat. He told us that we could not hunt the mountains because the “only” road up there had been leased to an outfitter which basically stopped all hunting for the season. There has to be a clearer way to communicate items like this. What if we would of gotten up there before daylight? And got a ticket for trespassing.
abqbw said:
On the website it says,
"Today, elk are by far the most valuable big game in New Mexico, filling residents’ freezers and bringing in millions of dollars in revenue to the New Mexico Department of Game and Fish.
But the allocation of elk tags is a touchy subject in our state. Many public draw hunters know how hard it is to draw a tag. Even though roughly 22,000 tags a year go into the draw, there simply aren’t enough to meet demand.
At the same time, however, private landowners are given nearly 14,000 tags through the program known as EPLUS – the Elk Private Land Use System. Through this program authorizations are given to landowners, most of whom sell the authorizations to the highest bidder.
According to the North American Model of Wildlife Conservation, wildlife is a public resource that belongs to all and is open to all, with no special priority given to status, income or occupation. However, on the private market, elk tags are sold for an average of $900 for cows, $6600 for bulls - often exceeding $15,000 for a bull tag. Tag prices have greatly increased over time, leaving most New Mexicans unable to compete in the private tag market.
Based on the most recent data from New Mexico Game and Fish Department license sales in 2021, we compiled a comprehensive report. The numbers tell a powerful story of a system in dire need of reform.
"
My question is..
1. How will putting all the tags into the draw help manage elk herds on private lands? What is the proposed solution?
A large portion of the state is private, especially in the Northern units. Take 55A, 46, and 54,(Special Zone) about 1.6 million acres with only about 9% public and that public is OIL, once in a lifetime draw,(Vidal) or off limits to non residents(wma's). There were about 4000 total tags issued for the private portion of that unit this year, more than likely not all will be purchased or used because of their management plans. Nevermind that those tags went to about 450 different landowners, of those 450, 65 live out of state. Those 65 received 588 tags, about 15%, the remaining 3400 tags, 85% were sent to New Mexico addresses to disperse. These tags would make up about 40% of the tags you want New Mexicans to have to fill their freezers based on the Arizona model quoted on the website. You're wanting New Mexico residents to take back their elk but New Mexicans are the one's that are controlling and selling said tags. So are you just looking for support from non land owning New Mexicans?
Back to the landowners that didn't convert tags last Fall. You say "that's throwing them away" but if you took those 4000 tags and converted them on public land that would be a major impact on herds, just because you can kill something doesn't make it the correct thing to do. If you remember correctly last Fall started off pretty mild and Elk seemed to stay up higher in a lot of places. I know several people that didn't convert tags because the elk hadn't moved onto their property(New Mexican landowners). I would say that's a wise decision for several reasons.
The state is currently essentially managing that elk herd with assistance from PLO's through the issuance of the Eplus tags. An elk herd that has benefited greatly, along with surrounding units, from the management plan implemented in the 90's by PLO's. If you put those tags in an open draw and half are drawn by hunters that can't gain access to these properties that management goes away.
Do you make it OTC like Unit 57? Where the state doesn't currently manage the elk herds but gave control completely over to landowners? I think if they do that the elk herds in 48, 49, 53, and 45 all suffer and start to go downhill in the future. If you take those tags and add them to the public the units suffer as well due to overhunting and pushing elk onto private that either isn't hunted because a tag wasn't issued or because no one that drew a tag could was willing to pay the trespass fee.
If you put them in a draw you'll have to separate them somehow so the applicant knows if they draw a tag they'll more than likely have to pay a trespass fee to hunt, then you basically have an outfitter pool again or a PLO tag, which you're against.
As evidenced by the quality of the elk herds in New Mexico I think they're doing a pretty good job with the plan they have in place. Are there things that can improve, sure. Does the game commission need to be appropriately appointed and not be at the whim of the governor? Absolutely.
You state your purpose pretty clearly, "Even though roughly 22,000 tags a year go into the draw, there simply aren’t enough to meet demand." That's the case everywhere nowadays. The tags you're trying to reallocate are still going to cost money, just in a different way, and the people you're looking to take that money away from are the majority fellow New Mexicans who have either worked hard and bettered themselves or inherited property from parent's/grandparents that did. Are there Vermejo's and UUXbars included, yeah but they're needed for multiple reasons; Taxes, employment, herd management, inaccessible calving habitat, etc. You're never going to get rid of private property rights or give everyone what they want/feel entitled to without a war or destroying/reducing the quality of the resource.
Just curious too, of the 2,638 eplus Unit wide tags issued last year, how many private land acres did that open up to public use? If you've ever hunted 48 then you know those UW ranches are extremely valuable there for access. It's a trade off. Will the system ever be perfect, doubtful. Is it better than some other states, yes. Is it the worst, absolutely not.
God Bless America and God Bless New Mexico.
Khunter
Well-known member
It is actually exactly that simple.
seeth07
Well-known member
No the point I'm making is it does show the side of the landowner that receives them (read hanks replies). It's doesn't show NMF&G side from a management or financial side.
Nameless Range
Well-known member
Cal's Week in Review discussed this a bit at the 11:00 mark here:
www.themeateater.com
As well as wrote an article about it:
www.themeateater.com
Cal's Week In Review | MeatEater Podcasts
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As well as wrote an article about it:
Has New Mexico ‘Privatized’ Its Elk Herd?
The New Mexico Wildlife Federation and the New Mexico Chapter of Backcountry Hunters and Anglers (BHA) published a bombshell report last week slamming the state’s Department of Game and Fish for “privatizing elk hunting opportunities.” The conservation and hunting groups claim that the state is...
