School/Mass shootings what's the answer?

[onpoint]

Yeah, never mind that he cherry picked my post and twisted it to fit his narrative. I wonder if he works for national media?

I purposely stepped away from this a while back. I have no more thoughts worth expressing about the OP.
However, if I understand the context of of post 620, this gutshot dude whoever you are , just suggested that a guy that has been on here for going on five years and has posted almost 2500 times about various topics concerning hunting on public lands (etc.) "works for the national media".
Nice.
We all adhere to our narratives - or the ones we want hear from who we want to hear them from - don't we.
What a bunch of simple minded bullshit.
Illustrates one of the reasons I quit on this one - nut jobs.

 

[Sytes]

I purposely stepped away from this a while back. I have no more thoughts worth expressing about the OP.
However, if I understand the context of of post 620, this gutshot dude whoever you are , just suggested that a guy that has been on here for going on five years and has posted almost 2500 times about various topics concerning hunting on public lands (etc.) "works for the national media".
Nice.
We all adhere to our narratives - or the ones we want hear from who we want to hear them from - don't we.
What a bunch of simple minded bullshit.
Illustrates one of the reasons I quit on this one - nut jobs.

This, coming from you is laughable!!!
Thanks for the chuckle.

 

[onpoint]

Gutshot's post had absolutely nothing to do with me, and my post had absolutely nothing to do with you.
We're both peas in a pod, Ain't we Sytes. I wonder if you're as alarmed as I am.
It's ALL yours......

 

[Gr8bawana]

A shotgun with a big magazine on it maybe, but if he had to stop and reload every 5-10 shots people would either run out of range or tackle him. The total ammo throughput is the basic issue. Banning a particular weapon is a waste of time, you have to address the capability of the weapon - these magazine fed semi-autos are an order of magnitude more effective in a mass shooting than other guns. (I don't support a ban, but support much more background check and hassle to obtain weapons of this capability.)

The Florida shooter also tried to fire at the fleeing students from a 3rd floor window but he couldn't break the glass. A shotgun wouldn't have had the range for that, nor would it have worked in the Las Vegas shooting.

In the public eye this is a much bigger problem than just school shootings. They are going to do something about it whether you want it or not. I just got off the phone with a well known hunter and even he is sick of these assault-type weapons. If we don't do something the gun haters will. It looks like Florida is going to raise the age to buy "rifles" to 21. How pointless and stupid is that? We need to admit these weapons are in a different class and start treating that way or it is going to be a giant pain in the ass to by any gun. We are probably also going to have to pay a fat tax on ammo.

Perhaps treat these weapons like fully automatic weapons that we can all legally have as long as we're willing to go through the ATF background check and pay the $200 yearly tax stamp on each weapon. I don't recall the last time there was a mass shooting where there was a fully automatic weapon used. Why? Because they are so tightly regulated.
Because who really NEEDS a 30 round magazine to go "hunting" with?

The very first step you need to complete is getting the local LEO to sign off on a form 4. Most LEO’s will know what this is immediately and you can usually gauge whether or not they will give you an automatic weapons permit. It seems that smaller, rural sheriffs are more inclined to sign off than big city cops, but you can try multiple locations if needed. You can get around this step by creating a NFA trust as seen here.
Make sure your record is clean. If you are a convicted felon, owe child support or have any kind of firearm violations, you will not receive an automatic weapons permit. Don’t even think about trying to fudge on this one, and don’t try to get someone else to purchase the tax stamp for you as this will mean jail time for both of ya.
Be prepared to have the local LEO perform a background check on anyone applying. This can range from mild to extremely stringent. Today, most LEO’s don’t want to put a stamp of approval on someone that may cause problems down the road. Make sure you are open and honest with any investigations.
Get your money together, because you are going to need it. With the NFA act, you can not purchase new automatic weapons and this severely limits the supply of them. You will probably need 5000 dollars to purchase a bottom of the line automatic weapon and the cost can go dramatically higher. You will also need to spend 200 dollars on your tax stamp.
Find a class 3 weapons dealer that will sell you what you want and complete the purchase. You will need the specifics from the weapon to fill in the forms. After gathering all the information, complete the form 4 and submit it to the BATFE along with 2 fingerprint cards and pictures. The BATF will let you know when your automatic weapons permit has been accepted or denied and then you can complete the purchase with your class iii dealer.

 

[Doublecluck]

I purposely stepped away from this a while back. I have no more thoughts worth expressing about the OP.
However, if I understand the context of of post 620, this gutshot dude whoever you are , just suggested that a guy that has been on here for going on five years and has posted almost 2500 times about various topics concerning hunting on public lands (etc.) "works for the national media".
Nice.
We all adhere to our narratives - or the ones we want hear from who we want to hear them from - don't we.
What a bunch of simple minded bullshit.
Illustrates one of the reasons I quit on this one - nut jobs.

I got the impression gutshot was referring to dannyb278 when he said “he” from post 606... but I stepped away after I saw that post.. so carry on..

 

[Gut Shot]

I purposely stepped away from this a while back. I have no more thoughts worth expressing about the OP.
However, if I understand the context of of post 620, this gutshot dude whoever you are , just suggested that a guy that has been on here for going on five years and has posted almost 2500 times about various topics concerning hunting on public lands (etc.) "works for the national media".
Nice.
We all adhere to our narratives - or the ones we want hear from who we want to hear them from - don't we.
What a bunch of simple minded bullshit.
Illustrates one of the reasons I quit on this one - nut jobs.

I don't think you understand the context of post 621. It wasn't directed at Gr8bwana at all. It was in reference to the poster that he quoted. And "works for the national media" was tongue in cheek. Tell me, was "simple minded bullshit" and "nut jobs" also tongue in cheek?

 

[onpoint]

I got the impression gutshot was referring to dannyb278 when he said “he” from post 606... but I stepped away after I saw that post.. so carry on..

My mistake or not. I convoluted the convolusion (word?). Then I guess dannyb278 is accused of being the "green decoy" - same bullshit. Whatever. I'll follow your lead.......

 

[onpoint]

I don't think you understand the context of post 621. It wasn't directed at Gr8bwana at all. It was in reference to the poster that he quoted. And "works for the national media" was tongue in cheek. Tell me, was "simple minded bullshit" and "nut jobs" also tongue in cheek?

No it was not. And ain't buying your comment was either - it was done for specific effect.
And I fully admit being a complete moron, myself, for having stepped back into this one.

 

[RobG]

Regarding shotguns, I was looking at the history of school shootings over time and was surprised to see one in my wife's hometown of Olean, NY. He used a shotgun and a rifle. 3 people killed. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olean_High_School_shooting

It's hard to draw any conclusions from the data because it is incomplete (e.g. http://missoulian.com/news/crime/le...cle_919e818f-a609-580f-92e0-40343a53acb2.html), but in the "good old days" we had school shootings; however the number of casualties was far less and the weapons used weren't capable of the mass murders we see today.

rg

 

[RobG]

No it was not. And ain't buying your comment was either - it was done for specific effect.
And I fully admit being a complete moron, myself, for having stepped back into this one.

"Me too"

 

[dannyb278]

Perhaps treat these weapons like fully automatic weapons that we can all legally have as long as we're willing to go through the ATF background check and pay the $200 yearly tax stamp on each weapon. I don't recall the last time there was a mass shooting where there was a fully automatic weapon used. Why? Because they are so tightly regulated.
Because who really NEEDS a 30 round magazine to go "hunting" with?

The very first step you need to complete is getting the local LEO to sign off on a form 4. Most LEO’s will know what this is immediately and you can usually gauge whether or not they will give you an automatic weapons permit. It seems that smaller, rural sheriffs are more inclined to sign off than big city cops, but you can try multiple locations if needed. You can get around this step by creating a NFA trust as seen here.
Make sure your record is clean. If you are a convicted felon, owe child support or have any kind of firearm violations, you will not receive an automatic weapons permit. Don’t even think about trying to fudge on this one, and don’t try to get someone else to purchase the tax stamp for you as this will mean jail time for both of ya.
Be prepared to have the local LEO perform a background check on anyone applying. This can range from mild to extremely stringent. Today, most LEO’s don’t want to put a stamp of approval on someone that may cause problems down the road. Make sure you are open and honest with any investigations.
Get your money together, because you are going to need it. With the NFA act, you can not purchase new automatic weapons and this severely limits the supply of them. You will probably need 5000 dollars to purchase a bottom of the line automatic weapon and the cost can go dramatically higher. You will also need to spend 200 dollars on your tax stamp.
Find a class 3 weapons dealer that will sell you what you want and complete the purchase. You will need the specifics from the weapon to fill in the forms. After gathering all the information, complete the form 4 and submit it to the BATFE along with 2 fingerprint cards and pictures. The BATF will let you know when your automatic weapons permit has been accepted or denied and then you can complete the purchase with your class iii dealer.

This is the best bit of sensical dialogue I've read on this thread since the first post. Way to bring her back. That's what we need here right? Sensible dialogue? There can be good arguments made for gun control and equally good arguments made towards the threats against 2nd amendment rights, while still focusing on the real problem ie the massive amount of death that's been dealt out in the last few years in our school's, churches, and movie theaters. The big problem I see is so many gun owners who seem to think even a suggestion of open dialogue is tantamount to treason and stepping all over their constitutionally-protected God damn rights..... it would make sense to me that in the scope of History those on the right side of it tend to come out ahead. So if the arguments against additional regulation is the right one wouldn't you be incouraged to discuss it rather than simply plug your ears and shout "loud noises!"

As a lifelong gun owner, veteran, father of school children, and husband to a school teacher you're damn right I'm interested in this topic. And the screaming asshats on either end of the spectrum aren't helping.

People like Gutshot need to understand something. I came of age kind of when this stuff all started. I was in high school when Columbine happened and have watched that scenario played out over and over again over the last 20 years. Those kids in Florida along with everyone else in high school are going to be a voting age in the next one to three years. Do you think what they've been hearing from our president as well as the Talking Heads of the NRA, and idiots on Facebook and YouTube accusing them of being crisis actors in the last few days is going to help swing them towards a nuanced understanding of firearms ownership or in the opposite direction? I would put money on the opposite direction. You might think as a gun owner that other people's lives are the ones held in your hands, but I would counter the opposite. Our lives as gun owners and Hunters are held in the hands of those that don't take part in either. I suggest we build Bridges, not burn them

 

[dannyb278]

My mistake or not. I convoluted the convolusion (word?). Then I guess dannyb278 is accused of being the "green decoy" - same bullshit. Whatever. I'll follow your lead.......

#RealGreenDecoy if I could borrow Big Fins hashtag.

 

[Sytes]

Regarding shotguns, I was looking at the history of school shootings over time and was surprised to see one in my wife's hometown of Olean, NY. He used a shotgun and a rifle. 3 people killed. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olean_High_School_shooting

It's hard to draw any conclusions from the data because it is incomplete (e.g. http://missoulian.com/news/crime/le...cle_919e818f-a609-580f-92e0-40343a53acb2.html), but in the "good old days" we had school shootings; however the number of casualties was far less and the weapons used weren't capable of the mass murders we see today.

rg

look at how many times the shotguns were fired in Columbine... Savage 311-D Side by Side sawed off (6 reloads), Savage-Springfield 67H side by side sawed off (12 reloads)...

Hunting shotguns used for murder. Was it the hunting shotgun that murdered or the people that pulled the hunting shotgun's triggers?

Semi auto hunting rifles that fire a round much great than a .223 or 5.56, too many to count.

Wait - Outdoor Life's article on semi auto hunting rifles... Outdoor Life hits the HT threads yet again; https://www.outdoorlife.com/photos/...0-best-semi-automatic-rifles-big-game-hunting

Wait, maybe it is not the .308 round semi auto's destructive power over the .223 or 5.56, it must be the magazine quantity.
Then we revert back to how frequently Eric and Dylan reloaded their rough and challenging side by side 2 shot loading shotguns... Is a 5 round mag going to reduce such use?

Better firearm restrictions... that's it! Wait though in the strict Norwegian gun controlled country Anders Breivik managed to access and utilize in one of the, if not the heaviest destruction of youth life obtained the restricted weapons used. When there is a will there is a way.

Again, when the gun has the artificial intel to murder... is the day we are in for one heck of a non fiction version of our fictional movies. Until then, the gun is not the problem. Ban shotguns, hunting rifles, cleavers, etc...

 

[RobG]

Better firearm restrictions... that's it! Wait though in the strict Norwegian gun controlled country Anders Breivik managed to access and utilize in one of the, if not the heaviest destruction of youth life obtained the restricted weapons used. When there is a will there is a way.

Again, when the gun has the artificial intel to murder... is the day we are in for one heck of a non fiction version of our fictional movies. Until then, the gun is not the problem. Ban shotguns, hunting rifles, cleavers, etc...

Well, when you have hunters disagreeing with you then you can be sure your opinion matches only a tiny minority of the overall population. We have easy access to these guns at the general public's pleasure. There will be change. Your opinion is so far out of the discussion that it is irrelevant. You might as well yell it into a can and bury it.

What has really changed over the last 25 years is Republicans don't have the courage to tell LaPierre to shut the hell up, like Bush did in 1995. That will change.

 

[Gut Shot]

look at how many times the shotguns were fired in Columbine... Savage 311-D Side by Side sawed off (6 reloads), Savage-Springfield 67H side by side sawed off (12 reloads)...

Hunting shotguns used for murder. Was it the hunting shotgun that murdered or the people that pulled the hunting shotgun's triggers?

Semi auto hunting rifles that fire a round much great than a .223 or 5.56, too many to count.

Wait - Outdoor Life's article on semi auto hunting rifles... Outdoor Life hits the HT threads yet again; https://www.outdoorlife.com/photos/...0-best-semi-automatic-rifles-big-game-hunting

Wait, maybe it is not the .308 round semi auto's destructive power over the .223 or 5.56, it must be the magazine quantity.
Then we revert back to how frequently Eric and Dylan reloaded their rough and challenging side by side 2 shot loading shotguns... Is a 5 round mag going to reduce such use?

Better firearm restrictions... that's it! Wait though in the strict Norwegian gun controlled country Anders Breivik managed to access and utilize in one of the, if not the heaviest destruction of youth life obtained the restricted weapons used. When there is a will there is a way.

Again, when the gun has the artificial intel to murder... is the day we are in for one heck of a non fiction version of our fictional movies. Until then, the gun is not the problem. Ban shotguns, hunting rifles, cleavers, etc...

Don't forget, the FBI was warned about this person multiple times and failed to do anything about it. The local police knew this guy was a problem and failed to do anything about it. The officers who responded sat around outside the school while children were being killed and failed to do anything about it.

The government screwed this up three days from Sunday. It's sad that people think the government restricting our rights will work to stop these things. The government could screw up a two car parade, I don't trust them not to screw up, in the future, on issues like this.

 

[Gr8bawana]

Let me again ask the same question I had in post #518. I noticed no one wanted to give us an acceptable number of dead.
How many of you are willing to add YOUR children or other loved ones to whatever body count you deem acceptable every year in the sake of not having any new gun legislation.
The title of the original thread asked "what's the answer"? Doing nothing is NOT the answer.

 

[Gut Shot]

Let me again ask the same question I had in post #518. I noticed no one wanted to give us an acceptable number of dead.
How many of you are willing to add YOUR children or other loved ones to whatever body count you deem acceptable every year in the sake of not having any new gun legislation.
The title of the original thread asked "what's the answer"? Doing nothing is NOT the answer.

When you can prove that more gun restrictions will indeed save lives I will give you a number.

Some time back it was brought up that Australia's gun ban was so great for their country and that it nearly did away with this kind of crap. But it isn't true. Australia's gun ban did nothing for the murder rate.

In the 20 years prior to the Port Arthur shooting, Australia had 77 people killed in massacres of one type or another. In the 20 years following it, they have had 76. The only thing that changed is that Australians now take the more culturally sensitive approach of locking people in buildings and lighting them on fire, or running them over with cars. On a side note, 5 of those massacres were shootings. The 2014 Sydney Siege (3 dead), The 2014 Hunt Family Murders (5 dead), The 2011 Hectorville Siege (3 dead), the Monash University Shooting (2 dead), and the 1999 Wright St Bikie Murders (3 dead).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_massacres_in_Australia

The 1996-97 National Firearms Agreement (NFA) in Australia introduced strict gun laws, primarily as a reaction to the mass shooting in Port Arthur, Tasmania in 1996, where 35 people were killed. Despite the fact that several researchers using the same data have examined the impact of the NFA on firearm deaths, a consensus does not appear to have been reached. In this paper, we re-analyze the same data on firearm deaths used in previous research, using tests for unknown structural breaks as a means to identifying impacts of the NFA. The results of these tests suggest that the NFA did not have any large effects on reducing firearm homicide or suicide rates.
http://melbourneinstitute.unimelb.edu.au/publications/working-papers/search/result?paper=2156271


And no one is saying "do nothing". Just leave the constitution alone.

You want some suggestions?

Do away with the law prohibiting guns in school. Allow teachers to carry if they want to. I can carry in my place of business. Why can't they? There are kids in my store from time to time, none of them have been hurt by the guns I keep around. I don't have a problem with college educated adults exercising their rights in a school.

If a teacher wants to carry I think entry level courses should be paid for by state government and their CCW license can be written off as a business expense. Firearms and accessories can be purchased with the same discounts law enforcement gets.


The NICS system should be done away with. It is needlessly cumbersome, and as we've seen in this case doesn't always work.

When you buy a gun you have to fill out all of the paperwork, answer the stupid questions (that a criminal will lie about anyway), and have a background check done. And it is only availabel to FFL's.

The NICS system should be replaced with a prohibited persons database kept by the FBI. Similar to the "no fly list" you wouldn't need a background check, just see if your name in on the list if it is you aren't getting on a plane.

Simply type in a persons state and driver's license number. Does it match the person's name and birthdate on the screen? If yes the computer would tell you whether or not they could own a gun. It could be used by people doing face to face sales as well as FFL's.

States would be required to submit updates to the database weekly, and held responsible for failure. Face to face buyers would be required by state law to keep a record of who the gun was sold to for a certain number of years.

Something else that could be done, and I'm sure I'll be called out for the barbarian that I am for posting this. Try these people, give them an appeal or two, then take them out to the court house lawn and hang them. The sight of a body twitching at the end of a rope might be a good deterrent for the next kid who looks at these murderers as role models.

 

[VAspeedgoat]

When you can prove that more gun restrictions will indeed save lives I will give you a number.

Some time back it was brought up that Australia's gun ban was so great for their country and that it nearly did away with this kind of crap. But it isn't true. Australia's gun ban did nothing for the murder rate.

In the 20 years prior to the Port Arthur shooting, Australia had 77 people killed in massacres of one type or another. In the 20 years following it, they have had 76. The only thing that changed is that Australians now take the more culturally sensitive approach of locking people in buildings and lighting them on fire, or running them over with cars. On a side note, 5 of those massacres were shootings. The 2014 Sydney Siege (3 dead), The 2014 Hunt Family Murders (5 dead), The 2011 Hectorville Siege (3 dead), the Monash University Shooting (2 dead), and the 1999 Wright St Bikie Murders (3 dead).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_massacres_in_Australia

The 1996-97 National Firearms Agreement (NFA) in Australia introduced strict gun laws, primarily as a reaction to the mass shooting in Port Arthur, Tasmania in 1996, where 35 people were killed. Despite the fact that several researchers using the same data have examined the impact of the NFA on firearm deaths, a consensus does not appear to have been reached. In this paper, we re-analyze the same data on firearm deaths used in previous research, using tests for unknown structural breaks as a means to identifying impacts of the NFA. The results of these tests suggest that the NFA did not have any large effects on reducing firearm homicide or suicide rates.
http://melbourneinstitute.unimelb.edu.au/publications/working-papers/search/result?paper=2156271


And no one is saying "do nothing". Just leave the constitution alone.

You want some suggestions?

Do away with the law prohibiting guns in school. Allow teachers to carry if they want to. I can carry in my place of business. Why can't they? There are kids in my store from time to time, none of them have been hurt by the guns I keep around. I don't have a problem with college educated adults exercising their rights in a school.

If a teacher wants to carry I think entry level courses should be paid for by state government and their CCW license can be written off as a business expense. Firearms and accessories can be purchased with the same discounts law enforcement gets.


The NICS system should be done away with. It is needlessly cumbersome, and as we've seen in this case doesn't always work.

When you buy a gun you have to fill out all of the paperwork, answer the stupid questions (that a criminal will lie about anyway), and have a background check done. And it is only availabel to FFL's.

The NICS system should be replaced with a prohibited persons database kept by the FBI. Similar to the "no fly list" you wouldn't need a background check, just see if your name in on the list if it is you aren't getting on a plane.

Simply type in a persons state and driver's license number. Does it match the person's name and birthdate on the screen? If yes the computer would tell you whether or not they could own a gun. It could be used by people doing face to face sales as well as FFL's.

States would be required to submit updates to the database weekly, and held responsible for failure. Face to face buyers would be required by state law to keep a record of who the gun was sold to for a certain number of years.

Something else that could be done, and I'm sure I'll be called out for the barbarian that I am for posting this. Try these people, give them an appeal or two, then take them out to the court house lawn and hang them. The sight of a body twitching at the end of a rope might be a good deterrent for the next kid who looks at these murderers as role models.

We disagree on the idea of what to do with so called assault weapons. But I certainly wouldn't disagree with any of your other suggestions. They would have likely helped this situation.

 

[Sytes]

Let me again ask the same question I had in post #518. I noticed no one wanted to give us an acceptable number of dead.
How many of you are willing to add YOUR children or other loved ones to whatever body count you deem acceptable every year in the sake of not having any new gun legislation.
The title of the original thread asked "what's the answer"? Doing nothing is NOT the answer.

When there is a will, there is a way. I believe reducing such incidents with focusing on the mental health aspect would be a great start. Unfortunately, this is not anything to fix least as far as I can see without violations of the Privacy Act and if any American felt a visit to a psychiatrist/psychologist would be helpful while the confidence of the conversation was not available, this would be significantly counter productive to helping people - people would be much less likely to seek mental health for a vast range of issues.

Teachers who have interest, pass further backgrounds contingent basis to remain a volunteer would need to continue passing qualifications with direct relation to Active Shooter scenario based training...

Better to have options than hope the shooter does not open your classroom's door while you pray your body is able to absorb as many bullets as possible... Then the next round after you can no longer protect your children because ***you are dead.

Options to preserve life. You feel reducing certain firearms while retaining semi auto "hunting" rifles... https://www.outdoorlife.com/photos/...0-best-semi-automatic-rifles-big-game-hunting With mags that switch quicker than 2 seconds for one who practice will do the job... well, not for Eric and Dylan' use of sawed off shotguns... Nor Anders Breivik ability to find a way to fit his will, nor... Etc...

 

[BigHornRam]

Well, when you have hunters disagreeing with you then you can be sure your opinion matches only a tiny minority of the overall population. We have easy access to these guns at the general public's pleasure. There will be change. Your opinion is so far out of the discussion that it is irrelevant. You might as well yell it into a can and bury it.

What has really changed over the last 25 years is Republicans don't have the courage to tell LaPierre to shut the hell up, like Bush did in 1995. That will change.

I'm starting to see why every candidate you endorse gets their ass handed to them Rob. Carry on.