School/Mass shootings what's the answer?

[VikingsGuy]

illustrate the glaring fact that "we" are not on the same page on a lot of issues - even as relatively small a demographic we hunters represent.

Great point. And in my view that is a good thing. A reason to keep coming back to HT. It stands as one small exception to our society's current demand to create self-reaffirming echo chambers. That is one of the biggest threats America faces, more than China, deficits or immigration - our current trend towards ideological isolation.

The strength of this forum, even though it may irritate some, is that we have onpoint AND dukes_daddy, BuzzH AND TopGun, and a little 375H&H, BenLamb and Sytes mixed in for good measure. And from their disagreements we all learn a little more.

 

[MTGomer]

this right did not exist under the constitution according to 120+ year of supreme court precedent.

There’s so much wrong with your ‘undeniable facts’
First, the constitution doesn’t create or give us any rights, nor does it restrict OUR rights. It is a document restricting government and acknowledging our pre existing rights.
The Supreme Court didn’t ‘give’ us individual gun rights in 2008. It ruled that the constitution protects our rights to own arms.

Again, rights don’t come from government, gun rights don’t come from the second amendment.


I’ve always found it interesting that if a person wants to be informed on this topic or elementary level economics, they must seek out and learn it on their own. It’s not taught at public school. Why is that?

 

[RobG]

As far as the "kids these days" type excuses I don't buy it. I'm fifty years old and, yes, we would often have hunting guns in our trucks at school, but if we hung something that looked like a weapon of war in our back window the community would have freaked out. (I'm not sure these guns were illegal, but nobody checked.) We had our problems back then. I remember the Bigfork, MT high school was evacuated because of a bomb threat. Mental health issues weren't treated back then so that isn't the issue either.

I remember when someone showed up at a kegger with a pistol and started firing it. Although it was in a "safe direction," we all thought that he was one f*cked up dude that we should stay clear of. In fact, anyone who walked around with a gun was considered pretty screwed up.

Back then you could get a machine gun. Of course you had to go through an intense scrutiny before you could get one. As such nobody had them. Accordingly mass murders using them were all but non-existent, just like they are today. In fact, most of the weapons available today were available back then, just not readily available so nobody had them.

Kids (and adults) back then called them clips, but the ones available only held a few rounds. You also couldn't pop them out with a finger click and slam in a new one, giving yourself the ability to fire with insignificant interruption as many rounds as you could lift. Most people my parents age supported the NRA up until they started pushing for these types of weapons, which they felt were more suited for warfare than something any nut should own. The potential problems with these were rather obvious. If you want to blame some kids, blame the ones who grew up in the era when the NRA convinced them that this kind of weaponry should be easily available. That just isn't the way it was back in the day or they would have been called the National Assault Weapon Association.

I don't know what to do now that the cat is out of the bag. I do know that the NRA is overplaying its hand. Their alleged 2 million members isn't even 1% of the U.S. population. If things don't change eventually their influence will be overshadowed by the people who don't want these weapons around. If we are lucky we will only go back to the day when we didn't think any fool ought to be able to buy the kind of "tactical" crap that is out there today.

 

[tjones]

If schools need security on a par w airports, so be it.

No amount of prayer is going stop, or even help this nonsense. Neither will banning flat billed hats, goth clothing or violent video games. We are in need of a serious crack down-- a heavy handed presence of security. Sad to say but until then-what Buzz said.

 

[BuzzH]

I find it amazing that people look to government to solve this problem. There was a day in this country that mom stayed home and raised the kids and dad worked one job and was able to feed the family, pay the bills, and have enough left over to take a vacation once a year. Mom had her finger on what the kids were doing, When jr. Got out of line dad came home from work and smacked him up side the head and life went on. Today children are raised by daycare and electronic devices while both parents work. Our culture is the problem, the more progressive we become the worse it will get. Fix family structure and you will solve the problem.

What a joke. We cant even whisper about taking away magazine capacity, but you want to impose, in a free society, a situation where you deny the old lady the opportunity to pursue a career? Laffin'...almost as ridiculous as forcing people to believe in God and Church. Not how it works in the land of the Free.

Not to mention, that in many cases, there is no option but for both parents to work...check the prices of homes, vehicles, insurance, health care, fuel, and consumer goods of all types.

Your fantasy has even a smaller chance of becoming reality than the NRA supporting any kind of gun legislation.

Freedom isn't Free...and this price is going to always have to be paid.

Good times to be in the funeral business, just a cold, tough, reality.

The best we can hope for, is tragedies like this, don't happen to us...there's your reality.

 

[Slam]

Mass killers have always been among us; however, the frequency and targeting of schools is a recent trend.

Very disturbing.

I hope that we as a nation can get to a point where an UNBIASED, scientific study of the mass murderers who carryout out these horrific actions is undertaken looking for commonalities (we have the horsepower to do this - do we have the political will?). At least with this type of information in hand we can intelligently discuss and try to implement strategies to change this behavior.

Otherwise, we will continue pissing in the wind and solving nothing.

In the mean time, it would make sense to learn from Israel on how they secured their schools from inside and outside attacks. This will bring up a funding question of which I would like to believe we as tax payers will be willing to pay the freight assuming it is well thought out.

 

[utah400elk]

I have now been in Law Enforcement for over 20 years and I am on the down hill slide to end my career. So...Please take this as my simple opinion as a LE, father, and hunter.

First, Buzz is right. There is nothing that can be done to stop these types of events without giving up some of our personal rights. It's really pretty simple. I don't believe that we can ever stop a person with a true conviction to kill, they will find a way. I also don't believe anybody can argue that the AR-15 type rifles allow more shots in a short period of time. School guards and police...that wont stop this. This school had security guards and a school resource officer. Almost anybody can get over a hundred rounds out of a AR type weapon within 1-2 minutes (given enough mags). Even if the security guards and school resource officers could get to the shooter in minutes, there could still be dozens of victims. As long as we allow these weapons to be possessed this is an probability and not a possibility.

As a father, I personally own a AR (6.8 SPC my son uses for hunting). It has very light recoil and is a great coyote rifle and deer (Whitetail) rifle. It's short quick and fun to shoot. I asked my wife what she thought of the AR debate and she said "I think your AR is a lot of fun to shoot". I see the practical uses for this rifle and when used responsibly, it is great. However, as a father, it breaks my heart to hear about these types of shootings. I cant imagine what these kids had to go through. We have a responsibility to keep our kids safe! I would be more than willing to give up my ability to own an AR if it could help reduce the chances of mass shootings.

As a hunter, I don't really need a high capacity AR. They are fun and I can see their usefulness but we don't actually need them. Like I said, I have an AR but I plan on selling it. I am going to get my son a 7mm08 and let him use that for hunting.

These are just my thoughts...

My heart goes out to all those who have been hurt by this senseless tragedy. I believe that, as a country, the further we run from our Christian values, the worse off we become. The only thing I know for certain is that this will happen again and more innocent lives will be lost. I wish there was a quick and simple answer for this but there isn't.

 

[NoWiser]

Does anyone here honestly think our country is a BETTER place to raise a family because almost anyone with a pulse can buy an AR style rifle with as many 30 round magazines as they want?

 

[MN Public Hunter]

I myself am on the environmental/science side of this issue and believe something in our environment is transforming our body/brain chemistry causing something to snap in certain people. Once we figure that out, and possibly never will, it would set us back in motion to being "normal" again. I'm not going to harp on what the possibilities are as I could bore you all to death with my thoughts on this.

Like others have said, all the laws in the world will not stop someone from doing what their brain has set them out to do. I will say though, if they did not have access to assault rifles and only had access to a single shot gun, of course there would be less casualties.

 

[MTGomer]

Does anyone here honestly think our country is a BETTER place to raise a family because almost anyone with a pulse can buy an AR style rifle with as many 30 round magazines as they want?

Is the world a better place because of religion? Of course not. Magical sky fairies have killed hundreds of millions. Ready to talk about the 1st Amendment too? Like I said above, slippery slope to the erosion of ALL rights.

 

[OriginalOscar]

What a joke. We cant even whisper about taking away magazine capacity, but you want to impose, in a free society, a situation where you deny the old lady the opportunity to pursue a career? Laffin'...almost as ridiculous as forcing people to believe in God and Church. Not how it works in the land of the Free.

Buzz, Faith, family and freedom are not jokes. Cause and affect.

 

[BucksnDucks]

There were plenty of available semi auto rifles prior to the AR and prior to the onset of these mass shootings. The Thompson machine gun and Browning BAR were available through the Sears catalog without random shootings a common place. Hell the Winchester repeating rifle has been around for well over 100 years. The M1 Garand, M1A, AK47, SKS, Ruger Mini 14/ranch rifle (basically an AR15 without the looks).
It is much easier to prove a correlation between the break down in schools, society, family, video games, pyscho drugs, mental care system than a newer, cooler looking firearm.
These days in school or work environment if you call someone "crazy" or "mental" you will be counseled on your bullying behavior and lack of acceptance.

 

[TimeOnTarget]

What a joke. We cant even whisper about taking away magazine capacity, but you want to impose, in a free society, a situation where you deny the old lady the opportunity to pursue a career? Laffin'...almost as ridiculous as forcing people to believe in God and Church. Not how it works in the land of the Free.

Not to mention, that in many cases, there is no option but for both parents to work...check the prices of homes, vehicles, insurance, health care, fuel, and consumer goods of all types.

Your fantasy has even a smaller chance of becoming reality than the NRA supporting any kind of gun legislation.

Freedom isn't Free...and this price is going to always have to be paid.

Good times to be in the funeral business, just a cold, tough, reality.

The best we can hope for, is tragedies like this, don't happen to us...there's your reality.

Buzz,

I think you took his post a little out of context.

I agree with Quack mostly. There is certainly less family interaction as a society now and more interaction with non family members than any other time in history.

I agree that there is no option for most family to have a stay at home parent, but I do believe it is a small part of the problem.

But like you said....Keep building caskets as I truly do not see an end or fix to this ever.

 

[Doublecluck]

What a joke. We cant even whisper about taking away magazine capacity, but you want to impose, in a free society, a situation where you deny the old lady the opportunity to pursue a career? Laffin'...almost as ridiculous as forcing people to believe in God and Church. Not how it works in the land of the Free.

Not to mention, that in many cases, there is no option but for both parents to work...check the prices of homes, vehicles, insurance, health care, fuel, and consumer goods of all types.

Your fantasy has even a smaller chance of becoming reality than the NRA supporting any kind of gun legislation.

Freedom isn't Free...and this price is going to always have to be paid.

Good times to be in the funeral business, just a cold, tough, reality.

The best we can hope for, is tragedies like this, don't happen to us...there's your reality.

I don’t think you understand my post buzz. I am not saying that women should not have the right to work, I am saying that children need to be Rasied by their parents in stable households with two parents. I am saying that boys and girls need father and mother figures.

Exactly, it does in many cases take both parents working, why is that? How come it takes two people working to live the same lifestyle that one person working could 60 years ago. Seems somewhere along the line a scam was pulled on the american people.

Laughing, I use to live in a state with a assault weapons ban, magazine ban, .50 cal ban, where you have to have a background check to purchase ammo.. last time I checked there were just as many or more school shooting there as anywhere else. Last time I checked kids were still dying on the streets. Laws don’t really effect people intent on breaking them until after they break them.

 

[BuzzH]

I don’t think you understand my post buzz. I am not saying that women should not have the right to work, I am saying that children need to be Rasied by their parents in stable households with two parents.

Exactly, it does in many cases take both parents working, why is that? How come it takes two people working to live the same lifestyle that one person working could 60 years ago. Seems somewhere along the line a scam was pulled on the american people.

Laughing, I use to live in a state with a assault weapons ban, magazine ban, .50 cal ban, where you have to have a background check to purchase ammo.. last time I checked there were just as many or more school shooting there as anywhere else. Last time I checked kids were still dying on the streets. Laws don’t really effect people intent on breaking them until after they break them.

Cant have it both ways...either the old lady gets a career or she stays home raising children. You cant expect people that want freedom to give up either kids or careers. If people want to let child care raise their kids, you cant, and wont ever be able to have a say otherwise. If both parents want to work, you wont be changing that either.

I do like the question in your paragraph 2...and agree regarding the scam. We collectively allow(ed) it to happen. Once again, that whole land of the Free thing and all.

 

[300stw]

couple thoughts from a father in a small school,,,,

id like to hear from 100's of educators, the ones that have our kids attention 8 hours a day, when the kid in the 3rd row continuously writes about extremely disturbing,topics, drawings notes on books ect, how do educators handle it, how many times do they ignore it, not mention it ect,,,, how many of these"types" of kids actual do harm to themselves, someone else,,

once a person pulls the trigger not much to do, but what are the warning signs, to the surrounding people, I bring up teachers and school staff, because my kids spend far more time there than they do at home,
I have first hand knowledge of kids with tremendously different ideas, other kids will say , "if some one brings a gun to school it would be him" teachers don't say much, I don't see any counseling, ect, to help these kids, how do we handle these kind of these situations In America today

how would we , in America, go about armed guards, use a national guard base in everytown to provide help, veterans, after some vetting, personable guy with some positive values
that could help pass on values on a daily basis to our youth,,,,
active shooter training mandatory at schools, someone with very good training is "the Guy" to retrieve the shotgun from the vault and try to handle the "situation"

during some training I was part off the run defense vs throw anything at the shooter vs have your own gun provided some insight on how to handle a situation, but does it work in real life situation, how many youths, teachers ect are going to interject themselves to help save lives at their own expense,

if we ban all semi autos and all clips, how many are going to get turned in vs. how many are in the united states right now, is it feasible to think 90 percent will be turned in or 10 percent ,,,,
seems we are very far behind trying to clean up the masses of guns ammo clips that are and have been available,,,

I do believe media should stay as far away from details on the shooter, bomber ect as possible, don't let them have their fame on tv social media, realistically the person should not survive,,,,

 

[RobG]

There were plenty of available semi auto rifles prior to the AR and prior to the onset of these mass shootings. The Thompson machine gun and Browning BAR were available through the Sears catalog without random shootings a common place.

I'm not an expert here, but perhaps you are are referring to pre 1934????

 

[shootbrownelk]

The slippery slope argument is almost always the worst argument in every debate on any topic. Every rule, law or convention we now have sits on a slope. Requiring my 14 yr old son to sit through 30 hours of classroom training, 6 hrs of behind the wheel, 50 hrs of logged supervised driving and passing two state tests along the way to get a drivers license is not just a slippery slope destined to have cars banned in MN.

We each have a line where the rules are acceptable/unacceptable. Debating those on the merits has value - citing slippery slope does not, because on its face it rejects out of hand learning, understanding, compromise, engagement with those who hold other views and constructive change. This is just 1 of about 25 critical issues facing the US and unfortunately PETA, NARAL, NRA, Seirra Club, etc, etc, etc have managed to place every one of them on a slippery slope and fight every inch to the death. Over time this is not good for society, and it is really not good for groups like outdoorsman who are such a small and shrinking voter group.

The last time I checked getting a license and driving a car is not a constitutional right, it's a privilege. Owning guns IS a constitutional right. You go ahead and give up whatever you like, I won't. You're entitled to your opinion as am I. We certainly differ.

 

[OhHeyThereBen]

I think what a lot of people on here are forgetting is that the second amendment has absolutely nothing to do with hunting. It doesn't even mention self defense in it. The reason for the second amendment is to have armaments in order to overthrow a tyrannical government. Plain and simple. This doesn't mean that I wait every day of my life for the opportunity to jump out and mow a bunch of people down with military-style weapons, but what it does mean is that I would have more of a right to have that style weapon than to have any of the hunting weapons that most of us all probably own.

I don't even own an AR15, but I do support those that want to for the reasons stated above.

 

[MTGomer]

What I got out of quacker’s post was that the days of the husband being able to work a blue collar job and comfortably support a family are over in many places of the country and career fields.
I didn’t get the idea he was saying women should be forced to stay home.

My great uncle bought 420 acres in heaven, built a dream home, drove nice vehicles and sent his kids to school, died with money in the bank on a logger/forester wage. His wife never worked a day in her life, and raised 8 kids to be productive decent humans.

Those days are gone.