SB 380 Reconsideration of Bill!

[Straight Arrow]

Greenhorn, if you are not interested in reading the insightful debate expressed through this thread, please don't open it. You have that choice.

PS: I am sorry about your back. Doesn't sound good.

 

[Point Creep]

Straight Arrow, My apologies - but I didn't see anything "insightful” - just more lip service from those who degrade public land hunters, public land hunting, block mgt, the FWP, and anything else that doesn’t help pimp the ”Texas way”.

Oxycodone makes me grumpy.

 

[Straight Arrow]

Greenhorn, you are still very lucid on Oxycodone. 'Don't know why I was trying to see something positive out of the thread. You are the one with "insight."

'Hope you heal quickly and well. Be strong.

 

[Eric Albus]

greenhorn...I am a "public hunter" as well. I have perhaps insulted the abilities of some "public land hunters", but they deserved it...public land hunting is what it is, and will remain so until managed. Block Mgmt. is in some isolated cases excellent hunting, in most cases not so much. I have only insinuated that FWP could do a little better job on elk/mule deer in general season areas...o.k. maybe I have been a lot judgemental on that one, especially the mule deer... if I have a passion in life it is for the grey deer....and we can not continue to hunt them like whitetail and elk.

Believe it or not, most of us in the outfitting industry are not against the "public hunters".

get off the Oxy, and try beer....afterall, it's proof God loves us and wants us to be happy. Ben Franklin

 

[Big Shooter]

We do need to have a sit down with DIY hunters, landowners, outfitters and possibly some FWP guys. Can't wait actually. Could I please pick the line up?:hump:

Greenhorn.....here is my suggestion....pain killers and two Pendleton's. That's what a friend told me anyway. Sorry to hear about your plight. Someone said it might be from riding a horse? If you need some lessons don't be afraid to call.

 

[Big Fin]

We do need to have a sit down with DIY hunters, landowners, outfitters and possibly some FWP guys. Can't wait actually. Could I please pick the line up?

Start picking. I don't see FWP or the landowners picking any groups, so I guess you have the podium.

 

[Point Creep]

Believe it or not, most of us in the outfitting industry are not against the "public hunters".

Although I might not be super-duper gullible.. I could benefit from horseback riding lessons. I am a complete ZERO.

 

[Eric Albus]

gullible or not, I do not have an ax to grind with resident hunters

 

[Straight Arrow]

I do not have an ax to grind with resident hunters

Then I ask you, as a MOGA Board member, to show leadership and propose FWP prerogatives and/or 2015 legislation that supports outfitters ... but does NOT harm FWP or resident hunters.

MOGA's positions on 2013 bills clearly demonstrate "an ax to grind with resident hunters" and further political support fort Sen Brenden's vendetta against FWP and wildlife. In the future I would hope that other MOGA board members who agree with you will stand up for positive proposals, rather than just "going along to get along".

 

[Pierre]

Eric, we constantly hear MOGA doesn't have an ax to grind but the first words out of their mouth are I-161. When their arguments are refuted they say "best thing that ever happened to us". Curious isn't it? To be sure, I saw MOGA support nothing positive for Montana, game management, N. Am. Model, etc. They only show with their hand out. Mac gives false and misleading testimony, is not afraid to knife in the back, and generally treats sportsmen with disdain. He treats State employees like chit and bullies. He tries to bully the BO outfitters. Actions speak loudly and he has burned too many bridges to count. MOGA's actions and self serving legislation is a direct reflection of Mac, the board, and membership. When is it that you folks restore some credibility? The manner in which you do business may seem affective to you but it is a reflection of character of MOGA and those calling the shots. The formation of MSA was a direct result of MOGA actions and legislation. We no longer will be complacent while MOGA runs amuck. There will be no more retreats with FWP where sportsmen pay the bills. There will be no more backroom deals without sportsmen involvement and transparency. We will expose MOGA for underhanded tactics. We will certainly tackle attacks from Paul Ellis and Mac head on and correct misinformation. Your sisterhood with SFW is telling. Work together? That is all hat and no cowboy. A change in tactics and attitude is in order before any middle ground will be found. We will be there in support of Montana's sportsmen! You can count on it!
Joe

 

[Eric Albus]

Joe, MOGA is a business directed organization. Not a Defenders of Wildlife organization. MOGA is there at the direction of it's membership and board of directors.... and "mis-information" runs both directions.

As to 161, you have never heard myself complain about it....it gives me that "warm fuzzy feelin'" about all the unintended consequences I warned of....that are now coming to pass....perhaps it is a coincidence that outfitter leased acres are going up...substantially since 161 passed....that there is a severe undersell on over-priced non-resident license....(one thing I will admit I did not see coming, was the HUGE undersell on the "deer combo"....why are these license not selling out? Simple, the price outstrips the quality for the average Joe DIY non-res. hunter. Further, I predict, unless something is done to put us back on an allotment of license (like we had prior to 161), that leased acres will top the old time high of 9 million...we are at about 6.5M right now

Do I think that this growth is a good thing? No, it is not, we are dealing many factors, and the public's wildlife...I would like to see my son take over my operation some day....and have it look like a semblance of what I operated...If something is not done to slow/stop the growth...it will become unbearable for the public, and something drastic could happen...I would much rather be "pro-active" than reactive....I have been working on some ideas to slow/stop growth on the industry, and even thinking of ways to take steps to REDUCE current use.

I am tired of the constant whinning on both sides...the petty bickering...and nobody offering any solutions to the problems at hand... I would rather work on solutions.
The first thing that both sides are going to have to do is take a history lesson, then identify the problems, and realize that nothing will happen if there is not some give and take....

 

[mtmuley]

What is the "something drastic" that could happen? mtmuley

 

[Straight Arrow]

I would like to see my son take over my operation some day

Eric, that sentiment reflects the very core of the difference between you (MOGA also) and most of the hunters on this forum, at least me. My dream already fulfilled was for my son to become an ethical, highly successful hunter who appreciates wildlife and pays out of his own pocket to support wildlife. The next dream is for my grandchildren to develop and enjoy similarly. Your dream is for your son to continue in your footsteps to commercially gain from wildlife. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with your dream: it is what capitalism is all about, but you have to acknowledge it is not the philosophy and attitude that has sustained the great Montana hunting legacy for decades.

 

[Eric Albus]

arrow......do you think if I (and others like me) did not put the resource first and believe that wildlife should be cared for and not slaughtered that we would even be in business? If the resource did not come ahead of the dollar I would book 5x's as many hunters (perhaps that is what we should be doing, then nobody would want access and the fight could be over). I have taught my son that if he wants to have anything he must be a good steward of the resource, and give back...not only to the resource but to conservation minded organizations....as stated before, I am very blessed to be able to give what I do annually, and I do not take that for granted.

mtmuley, I have heard rumor of ballot intiatives...and look how well that last one turned out...when dealing w/ wildlife the ballot box is not place. How many uninformed voters are out there...the majority who voted for 161 did not even know what they voted on...some guys like Randy were smart enough to figure out it was a bad deal for the resident....but a good deal of folks who "thought" they knew what they were voting on did it purely for puntative measures against outfitting...so, as I predicted, we are up in acres...most of the rules are gone, the number of NCHU(clients we can take) out there is more than there are license available for non-residents...all thanks to 161...I can go on for 5 more paragraphs about how much better off I(we) are...

so in my opinion, there needs be a few of us sit down and work out an accord that both sides can live with...and curb/stop growth within the outfitting industry...which is hard for me to want to do, as I am a conservative, who happens to believe in capitalism...but I understand that we are dealing with a perception and a public resrouce...

 

[Straight Arrow]

Eric, you have just made my point again regarding ideological differences. You have clearly and numerously expressed intent on caring for wildlife, about being "right" concerning I-161 consequences, opposing the use of ballot initiatives, and collaboration ... to the point of excessive redundancy. I respectfully request that you now work as a MOGA Board member in showing action to back up your views. We have been rotating in circular discussion throughout this thread regarding MOGA versus Montana sportsmen. Clearly this past legislative session, MOGA has taken the offense in attacking the issues through what was expressed by a MOGA self-appointed spokesman as a "blood bath." All the rhetoric in the world expressed by you and any other reasonable outfitters will not alter the animosity until action is taken on your part. Words are cheap!

 

[shoots-straight]

Some of the things you say you want, I can agree on. Others not so much.

Your saying the industry should be regulated, but a MOGA supported, and spearheaded bill (HB 274) would have done much to take away all remaining regulations. Only the amendments from Governor Bullock, helped keep the most important ones in place.

It sounds as though MOGA is ran by the elite few.

You still talk double talk on I-161. It's good, it's bad, more clients, less clients, less regulations, etc. The only people that have a problem with the passing of I-161 is the outfitters.

The resident sportsman in Western Montana (Ravalli County to narrow it down) had to fight the local outfitters tooth and nail to go limited entry here. The outfitters wanted their clients to be able to take a forky no matter how bad the resource faltered.

Ravalli County has the most desired mule deer tags available almost anywhere. Thousands of people put in for here to get a chance at a trophy deer.

That came from resident sportsman, not outfitters. So lets not paint, everyone on both sides, with the same brush.

If we cut the non residents back to where they should be, (around 10% of tag sales) then there will be no more leasing for outfitted clients than we have today. That's the main new, regulation that needs to come down the pipe, and would curtail any new growth. That would be a citizens initiative, and tell me how complicated that would be for the average Montanan to grasp? I'm pretty sure they could figure that one out. That would also take away MOGA attempts at adding more every session. I think this one needs to happen.

 

[TBass]

(one thing I will admit I did not see coming, was the HUGE undersell on the "deer combo"....why are these license not selling out? Simple, the price outstrips the quality for the average Joe DIY non-res. hunter.

Are the deer combos available for sale "leftovers" from the pool of 6,600 or are they from split big game combos where the person applied for an elk combo, making the deer portion of the big game combo available for sale? With all the splitting options available on the big game combos now, it's getting harder to look at raw numbers and jump to conclusions. I think alot of people have jumped out of the deer combo pool into the big game combo pool because they know for a small fee they can get a guaranteed deer combo by putting in for a hard to draw elk permit and return the elk portion when they don't draw. Why would anybody put in for the LO-sponsored deer license anymore when they can take advantage of HB 607 language and get a guaranteed deer combo and not be limited to the LO's property? The 2,341 elk combos available right now indicate at least that many people took advantage of returning the elk and keeping the deer portion of the big game combo this year.

 

[Eric Albus]

straight, Paul Ellis is not a "MOGA spokesman" and would not paint himself as such...

shoots, I have never "double talked on 161". It certainly has not been bad for outfitters...at least none I consort w/ would go back...and I know a fair number of successful outfitters. I have stated that it may be a bad thing that we can grow again...there is already enough animosity over the 6.5M acres we lease and own.
the permit area, I assume is 270? I have heard that it was great. kinda like 652...we "sportsmen" fought FWP to get that area..and it was great for a few years..."was" being key word.

 

[TBass]

so in my opinion, there needs be a few of us sit down and work out an accord that both sides can live with...and curb/stop growth within the outfitting industry...which is hard for me to want to do, as I am a conservative, who happens to believe in capitalism...but I understand that we are dealing with a perception and a public resrouce...

Why do you need anybody else involved to curb your own industry?

 

[Straight Arrow]

Paul Ellis is not a "MOGA spokesman" and would not paint himself as such...

Perception becomes reality when spoken words play out in the real world and in the legislative session. Paul's "blood bath" expression was perceived by most of the world as an expression representing MOGA's approach to introducing and/or supporting "bad" bills .... which really happened.