SB 111 Crossbows out of Committee

[RaiderRich]

Interesting discussion. I have not hunted with a bow since I left NY 9 years ago. I stick to firearms. NY is obviously a different animal from Montana and NY did start allowing crossbows but only for a week or two before firearms season. So they have an archery season, archery/crossbow season, firearms season and muzzleloader season.

It works for NY as whitetail are like rats in that state and not enough hunter pressure as it is. Given what I hear of out west in general and animal populations yeah allowing crossbows during archery may not be the best idea, though the disabled exemption does need to be considered as while purists may say no can't happen, ADA laws could be used to push issues, especially on public land, that could endanger the sport for everyone.

 

[golfer]

Interesting discussion. I have not hunted with a bow since I left NY 9 years ago. I stick to firearms. NY is obviously a different animal from Montana and NY did start allowing crossbows but only for a week or two before firearms season. So they have an archery season, archery/crossbow season, firearms season and muzzleloader season.

It works for NY as whitetail are like rats in that state and not enough hunter pressure as it is. Given what I hear of out west in general and animal populations yeah allowing crossbows during archery may not be the best idea, though the disabled exemption does need to be considered as while purists may say no can't happen, ADA laws could be used to push issues, especially on public land, that could endanger the sport for everyone.

The permit to modify archery equipment is ADA compliant already.

 

[manitou1]

Crossbows have decimated the deer and elk herds in WY. None left.

 

[RaiderRich]

The permit to modify archery equipment is ADA compliant already.

Thanks for the info. I have not payed a ton of attention to archery laws out west as I tend to stick with firearms nowadays.

 

[AvidIndoorsman]

Crossbows have decimated the deer and elk herds in WY. None left.

How many points does it take to get a NR general elk tag these days.

 

[antlerradar]

I am good with a primitive weapons' season the last two weeks of November.

 

[Fremont15]

Crossbows should always be allowed during archery seasons. If a person is more comfortable and accurate with a crossbow then I don’t see the rationale behind excluding them.

 

[shoots-straight]

Crossbows should always be allowed during archery seasons. If a person is more comfortable and accurate with a crossbow then I don’t see the rationale behind excluding them.

You see, bow seasons were suppose to be tough to take animals in. They were intended to be a low probability of success hunt. The Rationale is to keep the hunt more of a challenge. If that's not your game then try game boy.

 

[Fremont15]

You see, bow seasons were suppose to be tough to take animals in. They were intended to be a low probability of success hunt. The Rationale is to keep the hunt more of a challenge. If that's not your game then try game boy.

I shoot better at long distances with my compound then I do with my crossbow so the challenge has nothing to do with it.

 

[mtmiller]

Crossbows should always be allowed during archery seasons. If a person is more comfortable and accurate with a crossbow then I don’t see the rationale behind excluding them.

Absolutely. I actually don't feel that comfortable with crossbows (weak shoulders, so tough to lock it in). Probably use this instead. Gotta be more accurate, so why not.

 

[elkduds]

Was talking to a good friend today about the crossbow bill. Where this has been tried in other states, due to abuse and enforcement issues, the next step down the road was to just allow crossbow during archery season without restrictions. Also, there are currently several places in Montana where you can currently hunt with a crossbow if you so choose.

Not in CO, which has allowed xbows and draw locks for medical disability during month-long archery season. CBA is a very strong advocacy group here, they oppose legalizing of xbows during archery season.

 

[RaiderRich]

Absolutely. I actually don't feel that comfortable with crossbows (weak shoulders, so tough to lock it in). Probably use this instead. Gotta be more accurate, so why not.

That is actually a firearm if I understand correctly. At least make it a challenge and use a Seneca Dragon Claw Air Rifle

 

[Bowhunter999]

This bill & the muzzleloader bill are simply bad policy.

The Fish & Wildlife Commission has the authority to do both of these, currently. By setting seasons in statute, and setting things like the crossbow for disability in statute, what the legislature is doing is eliminating the role of the Commission in Fish & Wildlife management. It also weakens the voice of the people in those decisions, as you now can no longer petition the commission for redress when these things get abused. You have to change the statute, which is infinitely more difficult than working with the commission.

The issue before us on both of these bills is not crossbows for disabled, which is already in place thanks to solid work by MBA, FWP & the commission, nor is it muzzlelaoder season dats, which the commission can set on their own, without the legislature's interference.

The independence of the commission is at stake. So is your voice in wildlife management.

I am in favor of a muzzleloader season after the general rifle season. Traditional only, front stuffers & iron sights. No inlines, scopes, etc. That can be achieved through a petition to the agency, and with commission support.

These bills are overreach, plain & simple, and they seek to further politicize & weaken MT's game management.

You bring up points Ben that have bothered me for years regarding special seasons, those more aptly named ‘challenging seasons’ that were but into use specifically for bow hunting and muzzle loader use. Since the conception of both, most of the ‘challenge’ of the intended use has been diluted to the point that it no longer serves the purpose. The original bow season is now a joke due to technology advancing it way past simple archery. Muzzle loader has progressed to the point of just another extended rifle season. People take something that was originally put into place to add a ‘bit of sport’ to a activity, but evidently found it too hard, needed to add features that destroyed the concept and took it out of it’s original purpose. Too bad for the sport !

 

[MTGomer]

Crossbows should always be allowed during archery seasons. If a person is more comfortable and accurate with a crossbow then I don’t see the rationale behind excluding them.

I’m most comfortable with a Tikka 7mag pushing 2905 fps that I can shoot a group small enough that I can cover with my hand at 650.
Mind if I use it?

 

[Badlandcat]

I shoot better at long distances with my compound then I do with my crossbow so the challenge has nothing to do with it.

You haven't shot a Gunwerks crossbow yet then

 

[AvidIndoorsman]

I shoot better at long distances with my compound then I do with my crossbow so the challenge has nothing to do with it.

Harvest = Number of hunters * success rate

If you want to keep the harvest the same then you have to either decrease the number of hunters or the success rate. If a weapon makes hunters more successful well... ipso facto..

In a lot of areas Harvest rate doesn't really matter, many states that have crossbows in archery seasons or allow any kind of muzzy, also allow 2+ deer tags.

Some states reduce hunter numbers and anticipate very high success rates, eg WY. It already takes a fairly long time for a NR to get a general tag in WY.

 

[Sytes]

The original bow season is now a joke due to technology advancing it way past simple archery. Muzzle loader has progressed to the point of just another extended rifle season. People take something that was originally put into place to add a ‘bit of sport’ to a activity, but evidently found it too hard, needed to add features that destroyed the concept and took it out of it’s original purpose. To bad for the sport !

Ben's pretty darn valuable. I'm glad he's most always available to ask average Joe/Jane Q's. And... he gets back w/o the ridicule some others present. He's an open channel to better understand content.

Onto non-schmoozing content:

I'm not a fan of legislature overstepping FWP's role.
Outside that, after catching @Randy Hodges response to my query;

With that thought process, no reason to have an archery season. There are reasonable limitations for traditional muzzleloaders as with archery.

Seems he deleted his response as I can not find it now...
His response was a statement about the reality of no need for an archery season... or so I surmised.
I didn't quite catch it as my average Joe archery hunt world doesn't exceed 40-50 yards. Thus, my world doesn't consider the modern skilled capabilities of these slide style compound bow pins that achieve 100 yard accuracy, etc. I still find that hard to fathom though I've spent time with and know of Randy's knowledge (and others here more knowledgeable of these skills) that this truly may be the case for modern archery. Why have a season for this? Personally, I believe the majority don't sling arrows beyond that 40-50 yard range and still find it a value.

After reading your comment @Bowhunter999 , I'm reconsidering my own initial counter post of Jones.
Maybe there really is no need for archery, if it truly is the case, archery technology has exceeded it's, "primitive" / traditional intent.
Maybe traditional muzzleloader, bound to the "primative" would exceed that level(?). I don't believe so - especially maintaining iron sights.
I still believe iron sytes (humor), powder, patch, and ball rammed down the barrel is authentic enough to define and maintain a quality worth its own set hunt days and redefining the last week of archery or the last week of rifle for this traditional muzzy would be reasonable.

However, in the end, it's good to see the vast majority w/in HT support FWP's role vs legislature powerplay.

 

[WIbiggame]

As someone who has seen this first hand here in WI you don't want to go down this road with any legislation. Always was in WI you could hunt with xbow if over 60, than it was with a medical reason. Now anyone can do it. We just had our first year were xbow harvest surpassed vertical, took 3 years.

Anyone who says they shoot better at long ranges with a vertical bow vs a xbow is doing something wrong. I never shot a xbow before went to a dealer with my brother they had one there. They said we could shoot it, had a target at 80yds they said don't aim at the same x. So we both shot and split the x.

Edit: @Gerald Martin WI started our muzzle loader season much like you proposing. Front load no 209 primer, iron sights. Was like that for about 10yrs. Has since turned into breach loading with any power scope you want. And they placed the season like you are suggesting for 12 days directly following our 9 day rifle season. A lot of really nice bucks get shot in this season if you are the food. Coming off the 9 days of getting ran all over the country, with any snow its pretty easy as mentioned above to catch up to these mature run down bucks.

 

[brockel]

I am in favor of a muzzleloader season after the general rifle season. Traditional only, front stuffers & iron sights. No inlines, scopes, etc. That can be achieved through a petition to the agency, and with commission support.

I’m in favor of it as long as as the total number of days during general hunting season aren’t extended for it. But we all know that 95% of hunters are in no way in favor of a shortened season. Takes 90 days to get your elk. Maybe archery through September. Rifle through October. Muzzleloader through November. Or flip rifle and muzzleloader

 

[Bowhunter999]

As someone who has seen this first hand here in WI you don't want to go down this road with any legislation. Always was in WI you could hunt with xbow if over 60, than it was with a medical reason. Now anyone can do it. We just had our first year were xbow harvest surpassed vertical, took 3 years.

Anyone who says they shoot better at long ranges with a vertical bow vs a xbow is doing something wrong. I never shot a xbow before went to a dealer with my brother they had one there. They said we could shoot it, had a target at 80yds they said don't aim at the same x. So we both shot and split the x.

Edit: @Gerald Martin WI started our muzzle loader season much like you proposing. Front load no 209 primer, iron sights. Was like that for about 10yrs. Has since turned into breach loading with any power scope you want. And they placed the season like you are suggesting for 12 days directly following our 9 day rifle season. A lot of really nice bucks get shot in this season if you are the food. Coming off the 9 days of getting ran all over the country, with any snow its pretty easy as mentioned above to catch up to these mature run down bucks.

The problem with legislation, once politicians become involved with game laws, you can pretty much figure game over ! Leave anything concerning to seasons, hunting means and weapons, solely to the conservation department and biologists !! It may not be exactly perfect, but far in advance of any involvement of legislation. All of our special primitive seasons have been ruined by politicians taking lobbying money from tech people who are manufacturing cross bows and inline black powder (ML ??) in order to increase sales, and the politicians will always go where the money is. With sales of technology driving hunting equipment, there will never be a stop in these advancements. Technology has it’s place in regular hunting seasons, but not in seasons designated ‘primitive’ ! JMHO