Rep Russ Fulcher Public Land open letter.

I’m mostly against the idea of transfer. Certainly do not support wholesale transfer of everything.

I do want to stop on the financial efficacy point for just a bit longer: have you seen that info quantified?

There is value in identifying if this is a “can’t” thing or “don’t want to” thing. Surely if there has been thousands of hours of studies, someone had to have estimated the value of bighorn, mountain goat and LE elk tags on the open market right? If not, the “studies” are useless.
Those studies have been done - both the land issue and the wildlife value. I have copes of them.

Again, the wildlife issue is completely irrelevant to the discussion of the land. Our courts have held that the wildlife is not an attachment to the land. Thus, making this a discussion about pricing hunting opportunity is moot as it relates to the ability to maintain/manage lands.

Additionally, in every western state I know, the proceeds from license sales goes to the wildlife agency, not to the general fund. For many reasons, one big reason being that such diversion would be a violation of the rules for Pittman-Robertson funds.

You make the point that if market-based values were used, non-resident hunting is underpriced. Yes, by market-based principles it is underpriced.

Yet, a game agency is not a for-profit entity and is not charged with maximizing profits, rather covering operating costs. A wildlife agency is closer to a non-profit entity, both of which use "non-financial measurement criteria" (CPA jargon) for evaluation of their effectiveness in accomplishing their mission. To say that wildlife agencies should use market-based models to maximize revenue at a different place on the supply-demand curve is like expecting the local Food Bank to charge needy patrons for food that is passed along. Neither has a mandate to make a profit.

Now, when it comes to land management and returns, yes, market-based approaches should be applied, as land agencies are charged with maximizing the revenues for their constituent group; in the case of states, the school systems are the constituent group. It seems more relevant focus on that in the context of a thread around the topic of a political wanting to change land ownership based on a rationale of financial measurement.
 
Again, the wildlife issue is completely irrelevant to the discussion of the land.

From a financial resource perspective that the states have at their disposal in this hypothetical scenario of land transfer, I do not agree. It is extremely relevant, especially in a financially distressed state such as Idaho.

Do you happen to recall roughly what the studies values were for bighorn and mountain goat tag values at in an open market/auction scenario? I have never come across actual dollar figure estimates. Regardless, I think we can all agree that it is a significant financial opportunity waiting for states to realize.

As for where states direct sportsman dollars- that is their prerogative and subject to change as they see fit.

Not wanting to do something is very different than not having the ability to do so. I’m challenging the premise that states “can’t” financially swing this. I’m not sure that is accurate.
 
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From a financial resource perspective that the states have at their disposal in this hypothetical scenario of land transfer, I do not agree.

Do you happen to recall roughly what the studies values were for bighorn and mountain goat tag values at in an open market/auction scenario? I have never come across actual dollar figure estimates.

As for where states direct dollars for tags, etc- that is their perogotive and subject to change as they see fit.

Not wanting to do something is very different than not having the ability to do so. I’m challenging the premise that states “can’t” financially swing this. I’m not sure that is accurate.
Heck yeah what a great idea for the future of hunting, sell all tags and opportunities for the maximum the market will allow

You’re thoughts on using tag and licenses moneys for whatever they see fit would completely undo the states ability to get PR and DJ money
 
Neither has a mandate to make a profit.

True. But I don’t believe that “profit” is what we are discussing though- it’s financial viability of the state to sustain itself.

I think a better analogy would be someone having their house trailer foreclosed on while refusing to sell the Ferrari parked outside. Asset management is the states’ own responsibility.

Can’t ≠ don’t want to.
 
As for where states direct sportsman dollars- that is their prerogative and subject to change as they see fit.

Not wanting to do something is very different than not having the ability to do so. I’m challenging the premise that states “can’t” financially swing this. I’m not sure that is accurate.
That is not prerogative, which assumes choice. That is by law.

Wanting and ability are different than "legal," though it seems we live in a time where "legal" is merely a suggestion for some elected officials.

I am sure it is accurate that states can't swing this within the confines of law. You can challenge that, but it ignores the sideboards of what is legal.

Edit: Here is the link to the study by the University of Utah, Utah State, and BYU, as it relates to Utah - https://d36oiwf74r1rap.cloudfront.n...08/1.-Land-Transfer-Analysis-Final-Report.pdf

Other states have done similar studies, all arriving at the same conclusion. And all applying law as the sideboards to what can/can't be done.
 
That is not prerogative, which assumes choice. That is by law.

I am in agreement that laws are fluid. In the event of a large-scale fed-to-state transfer, I’m sure we’d see quite a bit of change in areas way beyond what we are currently discussing.

Also, thank you for posting that study. At quick first glance (page 277), I could not find any estimates of unrealized financial gain via potential changes in tag sales. Huge document though, I will dig in later and see if it’s hiding in there somewhere.

*Nevermind. It’s from 2014- even if it is in there, the values listed are badly outdated.
 
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Those studies have been done - both the land issue and the wildlife value. I have copes of them.
Do the studies make the assumption that State would also get 100% of the royalties that come from Fed land?

Quick google search gives me the following, 2023 Fed royalties from O&G and coal = $8.85B, 2023 Fire suppression on Fed land was $3.1B. I know there is a boatload more to land management than just fire suppression but overcoming the insane cost of wildfires seems to get brought up a lot as a big driver of why the economics don't work.
 
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We just have vastly different perspectives on this issue. It’s really surprising you share that perspective but I respect your right to have that opinion.

I appreciate it, and I get where you’re coming from as well. I used to view these types of issues the same way.
 
This was studied multiple times @Treeshark thousands of hours and dollars spent researching this. The conclusion is always that some of the lands would need to be sold into private ownership.
Agreed. The thought has cooled a lot here in Nevada about transferring lands to the state.

But, the land sale deals from congress are still a hot topic. If tbe lands got transferred, many would be sold. No doubt in my mind.

I do like the idea of locals having more direct control over lands close to them.

I do know state lands I visit are better staffed, better maintained and generally more cared for by people that pay a daily use fee to access those state parks.

As compared to forest service and BLM roads in comparatively poor shape, buildings abandoned and no longer in use (remote cabins and admin sites, for example).

But, I also know the state would not be able to absorb the fire budget alone, not to mention taking over, restoring and maintaining current facilities, hiring people to keep it all in check, law enforcement and administrative duties for all of it.

And, just talking about the idea of raising the cost of a hunting license and deer tag had the governor and people up in arms this year (last license increase was in 2003, I believe).

So, in this case, I'll take the lesser of two evils in regards to the public lands, and agree it needs to stay in Federal control.
 
The simplest way to think about this for me is simply price out some land a private ranch whatever and than run through the analysis of purchasing and making it pay for itself. Let’s not even mention opportunity cost. The only way the math math’s out is with development or if the parcel has significant resources. Very few parcels have this potential. Ask a farmer or rancher if you don’t believe me
 
The simplest way to think about this for me is simply price out some land a private ranch whatever and than run through the analysis of purchasing and making it pay for itself. Let’s not even mention opportunity cost. The only way the math math’s out is with development or if the parcel has significant resources. Very few parcels have this potential. Ask a farmer or rancher if you don’t believe me
If the purchase price is $0, the math is much easier.
 
This thread has veered from land management into wildlife management. The price of tags is irrelevant to this thread. With the exception that IDFG compensates IDL for recreational access to the majority of State Endowment lands. Unless instigated by IDFG, any lands transferred to Idaho would not be the domain of IDFG but the Idaho Department of Lands. IDFG only manages Wildlife Management Areas, not endowment lands. I DO NOT want to get into a discussion of ENDOWMENT lands vs PUBLIC lands. Maybe we need to, but I'm not educated enough to broker such a discussion.

1) IDL is measured on the profitability of their (endowment) lands. Unprofitable lands are sold or traded. In my 30 years here, I only know of one transaction in which the public was able to prevent IDL lands being traded. In that case the Governor's vote won the day. This involved trading North Idaho corporate (logged over) timber lands for IDL owned lake front on Payette Lake. IDL's use case was that the land was intrinsically too valuable for its current recreational use. They are not wrong. Enter a proxy developer for PotlatchDeltic to pitch a trade and all hell broke loose. PotlatchDeltic is more and more in the real estate business, not the timber business. I think it is doubtful they would have developed the land themselves, but they would have ended up sitting on outrageously valuable acreage on Payette Lake. BHA Idaho was a big player in stopping this trade. But not the only player. A multi-interest coalition came together to stop the trade. Right up to the end I was not sure what I thought about the deal, other than the proxy was going to get fat off it. Better to be robbed with a gun than a briefcase. In the end, I think a lot of the Governor's friends enjoy that lakefront parcel. I am more likely to recreate on the North Idaho timber. Ironically, IDFG would pay less for me to access it as endowment land than as Large Tract Program land. They would incur law enforcement costs with the transistion, which are not cheap. I do not recall that being part of the math at the time.

It was telling to me that all the maps and photos of the PotlatchDeltic land in play showed it covered in timber. Anyone who has driven the Granddad bridge loop in the last couple of years knows this land looks like the face of the moon.

Why bring this up? Because it could happen again tomorrow. It will happen again at some point. A $900 suit standing in front of the State Board of Land Commissioners saying he just, "wants to do what is best for the people of Idaho" is pretty compelling compared to those peasants with pitchforks.

2) While the majority of IDL lands are accessible for recreational use, not all. There is no mandate for any IDL lands to be accessible. Since 2018 IDL has been compensated by IDFG for this arrangement. In addition to monetary compensation, the agreement requires IDFG to provide law enforcement on IDL lands. There are some exceptions such as camping more than 14 days, etc requiring a permit directly from IDL. Bottom line, non hunting users are riding on the coattails of sportsmen. (This is something I commented heavily on in the IDFG Strategic Policy review comment period.)

The 2018 agreement is policy, not law. It could be sunset at anytime should IDL decide they can get a better deal elsewhere. Other IDFG programs spend on public access, but they are not in the scope of a land transfer discussion.
 
If Idaho loses PILT and SRS, the price is not $0
Wouldn't those be considered a lost revenue stream rather than a purchase price? Transfer would result in all sorts of changes to revenue for both the Fed and States, but I have yet to hear of anyone pushing this idea that has suggested paying a $/ac price.
 
I emailed Fulcher. I asked how he plans to keep federal lands in public lands should they be transferred. I asked where the budget to manage would come from without selling lands. I pointed out that Idaho is in a budget deficit.

I also mentioned that he voted
For budget cuts on virtually every agency responsible for management. Now says the lands are mismanaged.

I encourage every Idaho resident here to ask similar questions. I plan to call also.

Please keep this relevant to the land transfer. I think 4 of the pages on this post are about wildlife management and tags more than the transfer.
 
Wouldn't those be considered a lost revenue stream rather than a purchase price? Transfer would result in all sorts of changes to revenue for both the Fed and States, but I have yet to hear of anyone pushing this idea that has suggested paying a $/ac price.
Context is "the math". I take that to mean running a balance sheet on the deal. Loss of PILT and SRS would be liabilities.
 

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