Be careful with a lead sled as it may create some strange effects. Always verify POI after using a lead sled as they have very little recoil forgiveness and I've seen 2 Big Boomers that ended up with cracked stocks. Depending on how you set them up and how much weight you use for resistance it can be almost like putting the butt of a stock up against a tree and then touching one off. They can be very unforgiving on recoil lugs, bedding, stock etc. depending on the amount of recoil as those components are taking the vast amount of recoil - only time will tell. I personally will not let one of my rifles used on a lead sled but each to their own.
Rem Model 7 Project
- Thread starter Biscuit Hunter
- Start date
Be careful with a lead sled as it may create some strange effects. Always verify POI after using a lead sled as they have very little recoil forgiveness and I've seen 2 Big Boomers that ended up with cracked stocks. Depending on how you set them up and how much weight you use for resistance it can be almost like putting the butt of a stock up against a tree and then touching one off. They can be very unforgiving on recoil lugs, bedding, stock etc. depending on the amount of recoil as those components are taking the vast amount of recoil - only time will tell. I personally will not let one of my rifles used on a lead sled but each to their own.
I'm betting it's your cheek weld. My father in law and I bought t-3 lites in 7 mag. For christmas I got a B&C stock and a small bag for on the stock. I shot both about a month ago and there was a big difference. I found my self searching for a good feel and fit when I shot his. Mine on the other hand just seem to fit and everything lined up without any further adjustment or movement. I'm interested to see if my father in law notices it as much as I did. I think he will be ordering that stock as well. Let us know how the lower mounts work and don't be afraid to try a bag that allows you to adjust the hiegth of that stock.
idnative1948
Well-known member
Sooo..... an old dog CAN learn new tricks. Some very good info here. Kind of like golf, pick up some bad habits and end up carrying them with you.
sbhooper
Well-known member
Is that from personal experience or is that based on speculation or hearsay?
I could maybe understand that if you are shooting thousands of rounds of heavy hitters, but that sled still moves quite a bit and has to be reset after every shot. I have seen no adverse effects shooting my 7 mag quite a bit. Smaller calibers are irrelevant.
The accuracy that you gain does make a difference, though, as you can determine what that load is capable of without the human error being as drastic. Load development with firearms that have substantial recoil is much easier when you can shoot 40 rounds with no bruises.
I'll keep using mine until I see a reason not to-and I haven't yet.
MKotur325
New member
I would second checking POI to verify on and off lead sled. Have a similar rest that I used to use in conjunction with a 25lb bag of shot with my .325WSM. I used this rest extensively during load development with this .325. Now that the load is developed, the rest stays home. Not sure if it was diferences in forend pressures, or simply just diference in recoil impulse, but I had POI Shifts as large as 2MOA shooting off bi-pod vs hunting pack vs rest. A couple rounds at the end of the zeroing session is really about all I'd do, but it cannot hurt to verify. And for the record, this rifle does have a free floating barrel.
I have also heard of instances of cracked stocks with Big Bores (.375+) on lead sleds. No personal experience with it, but I wouldn't chance it.
I've gotten to the point where I zero laying on the ground with a bi-pod and a rear bag. No more benches, no more benchrests. What better way to gain an understanding of how accurately you can shoot in the field, and where the rifle will shoot in the field??? My final Zero is shot from the position I strive to shoot out of while afield... Bi-pod with a rear support from the prone. Just my .02...
That looks like a sweet setup, Does the Model 7 have one or two screw holes for the rear scope base? If only one the Talley UL setup may not work.
I have a Wby. Vanguard 30-06 with a #1 contour (pencil) barrel that had major POI shift issues as the barrel heated up. I eliminated the swivel screw contact with the barrel and full length bedded the stock. Now it shoots 1.25" groups with boring regularity and no more POI shifting.
Enjoy the new gun!
I have a Wby. Vanguard 30-06 with a #1 contour (pencil) barrel that had major POI shift issues as the barrel heated up. I eliminated the swivel screw contact with the barrel and full length bedded the stock. Now it shoots 1.25" groups with boring regularity and no more POI shifting.
Enjoy the new gun!
Biscuit Hunter
New member
I'm not sure. I haven't removed the base to find out, but from the research I've done, if there's only one hole, the receiver just needs to be drilled and tapped for the second screw, and they'll fit on just fine.
All of this talk about fancy schmancy lead sleds has me laughing at my set up.
Here are the bags that I shoot from
I guess I could at least spring for some fresh duct tape
I usually don't shoot off of them too much. I'll get a load worked out, sight it in, and spend the rest of my trigger time shooting from field positions. Probably a good idea to upgrade my "bench" set up as well...
About cleaning-- I was thinking along the lines of what you guys are talking about, that I shouldn't take the bore down to bare metal so often. I left it uncleaned after my last session, so I think I'll just get whatever little bit of carbon is in there and call it good.
Cowboy--
A couple of things that you brought up about form are spot on.
My right hand position has been very inconsistent, both in terms of placement and amount of tension. I'll pay close attention to this.
On my last outing, I distinctly remember the rifle recoiling up and to the right, on many of my shots. I guess I need to back off of the rifle a bit, and not put forward shoulder pressure on it? And would squaring up my shoulders better, and shifting body position to the right help stop it from recoiling to the right?
As I've thought about all of this, and reading through all of the responses I've received, I'm becoming more and more convinced that my initial thought of operator error was spot on. Other than a terrible trigger, I don't think there's anything wrong with this rifle. I did get a couple of references for local smiths, so tomorrow I'm going to make some calls and get this project rolling forward. Getting the scope mounted and the trigger cleaned up are for sure, I'm still debating the bedding and freefloating. I'm not sure that I want to tackle it myself, and I don't want to pay to have it done unless it's really necessary. I think I'll shoot it some more before I decide. I have plenty of components to spare a few on some further testing.
MKotur325
New member
To answer both questions.
First, I'd focus more on having consistent pressure from the tips of your fingers rearward through the stock. Think of your shoulder as a wall for recoil. In my finding, it doesn't really have to push forward. The shoulder should just be able to push straight backward.
Second, how square your body is to the rifle can determine how the rifle reacts during recoil. In modern precision rifle training, it's no longer common to recommend a significant angle between the body and the rifle. The angle is more important for controlling recoil, watching hits in the scope, and faster follow up's than pure accuracy. The big thing is Consistency! If the rifle is not is the same part of the shoulder every time, with the same body angle to the rifle, it will effect how the rifle recoils, and that can affect POI. If you start noticing the rifle recoiling and coming down inconsistently, body position is probably not consistent.
Body position to rifle will also effect the relationship between the scope and the eye. For a fixed paralax scope this can is important. If the eye is not in the same spot, the crosshairs may actually be at a SLIGHTLY different angle in relationship to the bore. Could create some minor impact shifts at 100yds.
By the way... There is nothing wrong with shooting off bags! What ever you decide to shoot off for a rest should be able to support the rifle on target. The only real difference between a bench rest and shooting off bags is that the bags are attached and adjustable. If you are comfortable shooting off bags, shoot off bags! Fundamentals are more important to accuracy than type of rest!
D
Deleted member 20812
Guest
Bedding jobs aren't that hard. I just did a rifle this winter. Do a Google search for "stress free pillar bedding". It's an excellent article that will walk you through the whole process and save you a chunk of change for other stuff.
Biscuit Hunter
New member
Yeah, I was really more laughing at the condition of mine. I haven't always been careful to keep the sling swivels clear of the bag, and they have torn holes in the top, thus the duct tape. Plus, this particular pair isn't all that stable. I am definitely able to move the rifle around a bit, and I think that sometimes I use my right hand to steady the rifle instead of adjusting the bags until they're settled in right. Also, I think I'm in the habit of shifting my body position to slightly adjust point of aim, instead of shifting the bags. I think this is greatly contributing to inconsistent body position from shot to shot. I'm thinking about keeping my current rear bag, and using something like this for the front:
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/61...t-bag-nylon-green-filled?cm_vc=ProductFinding
JLS,
Thanks for the reminder about that article. I saw it pop up on another thread a little while ago, and meant to give it a read. I'll be sure to check it out.
MKotur325
New member
Looks like a nice front bag, though... quick question...
Why not shoot off your hunting pack? If you shoot off your pack in the field, why not shoot off your pack and rear bag at the range?
Why not shoot off your hunting pack? If you shoot off your pack in the field, why not shoot off your pack and rear bag at the range?
Biscuit Hunter
New member
Good question
I practice shooting off of my pack quite a bit, with no rear bag, to simulate an ideal field shot at a critter. I've just always used those bags when testing handloads and sighting in. I might be able to get just as stable a setup off of my pack with the rear bag I already have, and save my self some cash from purchasing a new front bag.
I practice shooting off of my pack quite a bit, with no rear bag, to simulate an ideal field shot at a critter. I've just always used those bags when testing handloads and sighting in. I might be able to get just as stable a setup off of my pack with the rear bag I already have, and save my self some cash from purchasing a new front bag.
MKotur325
New member
Good question
I practice shooting off of my pack quite a bit, with no rear bag, to simulate an ideal field shot at a critter. I've just always used those bags when testing handloads and sighting in. I might be able to get just as stable a setup off of my pack with the rear bag I already have, and save my self some cash from purchasing a new front bag.
I shoot off my pack when I'm not shooting off a bi-pod. And if you look Caldwell has a nylon filled rear bag that only ways like 4-5 OZ. I carry that thing in my pack when I'm hunting. If you have the time to set up, Why not?!? If I have the chance, I will almost always use a rear bag, or roll up a jacket for a rear rest when I'm hunting. It has helped me make some shots that I wouldn't have taken w/o a rear support.
Biscuit Hunter
New member
Some new results
I figured I'd take the rifle out again before I started "fixing" stuff. A lot of it was that I wanted to try out the Leupold at its' current height before I decide for sure on new rings, but I also wanted to see what would happen when I really paid attention to what I was doing. Things worked out much better. Go figure.
Here's a pic of my typical set up when I test loads, zero in, etc.
A couple of five round groups with 85gr Sierras. Nothing spectacular, but much better than what I had been doing last time. I could tweak the load in the future, but I'll probably just call it good enough and let my son shoot up the rest of them. They'll make a great getting to know you load for him to start off with in this rifle.
A three round group with the 129 Interlocks that had been giving me fits the last couple of times that I shot them. Pretty much back to the same level of accuracy that they had shown the first couple of times that I tried them.
All in all-- except for the lawyer proof trigger-- there's nothing wrong with this rifle as is, and whatever I end up doing to it will just be gravy.
Thanks for all of the tips on the "little" aspects of good shooting form. Getting back to basics really made a difference in results.
I figured I'd take the rifle out again before I started "fixing" stuff. A lot of it was that I wanted to try out the Leupold at its' current height before I decide for sure on new rings, but I also wanted to see what would happen when I really paid attention to what I was doing. Things worked out much better. Go figure.
Here's a pic of my typical set up when I test loads, zero in, etc.
A couple of five round groups with 85gr Sierras. Nothing spectacular, but much better than what I had been doing last time. I could tweak the load in the future, but I'll probably just call it good enough and let my son shoot up the rest of them. They'll make a great getting to know you load for him to start off with in this rifle.
A three round group with the 129 Interlocks that had been giving me fits the last couple of times that I shot them. Pretty much back to the same level of accuracy that they had shown the first couple of times that I tried them.
All in all-- except for the lawyer proof trigger-- there's nothing wrong with this rifle as is, and whatever I end up doing to it will just be gravy.
Thanks for all of the tips on the "little" aspects of good shooting form. Getting back to basics really made a difference in results.
I almost went that exact direction for my wife and daughter. Remington Model 7 SS/260. But I went with the Savage 11 Lady Hunter in 6.5 Creedmoor. Mounted a 3-9x40 Nikon BDC. I haven't had time to shoot it yet. I went with the 140g Hornady Amax. Only because that particular round matches up with the Nikon BDC pretty well.
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sbhooper
Well-known member
Nice rifle! I will take a Savage hands down.
Biscuit Hunter
New member
Should be a pretty sweet shooting rifle.
I'd be curious to hear how that works out. I only chronoed one factory round out of mine. Federal Fusion 120s. The box lists them at 2950 at the muzzle. I have a feeling that's pretty generous no matter the barrel length, but in any case, out of the 20 inch barrel on my rifle I was averaging a bit less than 2700. That would throw off drops by quite a bit.
The Burris that I originally had on the M7 was borrowed from my 300 WM, and has the stadia lines on the reticle, like your Nikon. With the 180gr loads I was using, zeroed at 100, the lines were supposed to match up at 200, 300, etc. But, to do that, the scope had to be set at 9x. Since I never carry the rifle with the scope set at 9x, and I didn't like the idea of having to think about hold over at 200, I ended up making it more simple for me.
Basically, I just zeroed the first stadia line at 300 (with the scope at 9x), and that put me on a more typical plus a bit at 100, zeroed a bit past 200. That way I could have the scope set to 5x like I prefer, and shoot out a bit past 200 without worry. Anything around 300 I could crank up the power and use the stadia for reference. I never shot the rifle much past 300, so all of the other lines just happened to be there.
Figured I'd mention this in case your load and stadia lines don't come together quite like you think they will.
I'd be curious to hear how that works out. I only chronoed one factory round out of mine. Federal Fusion 120s. The box lists them at 2950 at the muzzle. I have a feeling that's pretty generous no matter the barrel length, but in any case, out of the 20 inch barrel on my rifle I was averaging a bit less than 2700. That would throw off drops by quite a bit.
The Burris that I originally had on the M7 was borrowed from my 300 WM, and has the stadia lines on the reticle, like your Nikon. With the 180gr loads I was using, zeroed at 100, the lines were supposed to match up at 200, 300, etc. But, to do that, the scope had to be set at 9x. Since I never carry the rifle with the scope set at 9x, and I didn't like the idea of having to think about hold over at 200, I ended up making it more simple for me.
Basically, I just zeroed the first stadia line at 300 (with the scope at 9x), and that put me on a more typical plus a bit at 100, zeroed a bit past 200. That way I could have the scope set to 5x like I prefer, and shoot out a bit past 200 without worry. Anything around 300 I could crank up the power and use the stadia for reference. I never shot the rifle much past 300, so all of the other lines just happened to be there.
Figured I'd mention this in case your load and stadia lines don't come together quite like you think they will.
