Red flag warnings

[Hilljackoutlaw]

Keep it civil and factual....and go!

I feel this is a scary and slippery slope for gun rights. If the door is cracked eventually radicals will kick it wide open!

 

[Exhausted]

I don't know man, it's tough. I know people personally that would legally be allowed to purchase firearms. However, I know them well enough to know that I'd be awful nervous around them (or nervous for their families) if they were to acquire a firearm. I wish I knew the right answer.

 

[grizzly_]

It's hard because there is certainly a slippery slope fear, and a valid one. There are also times when it could be validly used to temporarily seize guns from a troubled individual.

How do we weigh that, and impart protections, against the doc with a political bent or the scorned ex-wife trying to harm the guy that cheated on her?

As a counterpoint, it sure seems many of the shooters were met with a response from peers that basically was, "Yeah, that guy was weird. We're not surprised."

There have been very few of these shooters that left friends and family shocked at their actions so clearly a potential to avert tragedy was there.

I don't know the answers. Just more questions.

 

[Rzrbck918]

I am leery of curtailing rights of unconvicted individuals but I am sickened beyond belief at child sized body bags being removed from anywhere as a result of gun violence. I know many think more laws wont solve the problem but I, for one, am ready to see some concrete actions taken with the intent of reducing access to firearms by people who are likely to be dangerous or nefarious in their purposes. Laws inevitably cast a large net and entangle some who are likely unintended. On balance, however, this is a price I am willing to pay. Many feel that is too great a surrender of rights and I respect that opinion; I just don't concur.

 

[Hilljackoutlaw]

One of my major issues with these type situations is that as smart humans we think we can fix every problem somehow or rather with law or whatever.
I feel that evil exists in this world and we cant fix evil with laws. We have laws against rape, pedophilia, theft, etc... do these laws fix those problems? No not at all.
Good versus evil is the longest war ever raged and I dont see any laws implemented stopping this war.

I just dont know any answers to these horrific problems.

 

[JohnCushman]

I can see it being a good tool, but I can also see it being used as a weapon by vindictive ex wives and stuff like that. I don't like the lack of due process in it.

 

[bushman13]

My recommendation is to disregard 90% of what is reported through media about these "shootings". They are playing everybody for fools.
Also be very wary of the parties coming together on any gun legislation.

 

[Ben Lamb]

The due process part is a real concern. Especially with veterans & scenarios like Cush lays out. But I think you can get around that with some thought.

But new gun control laws without trying to understand and fix the Root problem of so much anger & hate in this country won't do what we want. People are despondent & feel unvalued. They feel alone & unsupported. We need to change that.

 

[mplane72]

I would not vote for someone who wanted me to give up my right to due process. I have serious concerns about anyone who would willing give up their right to due process even to preserve their 2A rights.

 

[Irrelevant]

And here I thought I was going to be reading about high fire hazards days...

 

[BucksnDucks]

Cushman replied with pretty much what I was going to say. Similarly a TRO (temporary restraining order) is a great tool to protect someone, usually a spouse/girlfriend from an immediate volatile situation. With a TRO firearms are to be removed from the house, not necessarily seized. A relative or friend can take possession. Trouble is the lack of due process, guilty until proven innocent, and the amount of gray area in a he said/she said situation. Also, there are other current laws on the books like "making terrorist threats" which is an arrestable offense. Although some cases are very clear, it's generally a very difficult process to determine if a threat is credible with the means to be carried out or just words. Hopefully, any new "red flag warning" type law will be written with a clear threshold of the statement of violence with ability to carry it out. I'm not optimistic about this.
Personally, I believe encouraging strong male role models in the lives of boys and enforcing consequence for bad behavior will help far more than any new laws. In the end murder is still illegal and that isn't stopping these cowards.

 

[smw110136]

What happens when people stop seeking medical treatment for mental illness out of fear the government will come take away their second amendment rights?

 

[JDH]

I wish the "slippery slope" argument wasn't valid. Just in general relating to 2A rights. I wouldn't be afraid to give up drum magazines if I knew there was no chance of losing basic ownership rights down the line.

 

[kylemcintyre67]

Laws like this will only encourage folks to avoid seeking treatment they may need. I know folks that will not exercise any of their VA benefits because of other vets all ready going through things like having sheriffs show up at their door and collect their guns because they called to schedule and appointment and the receptionist at the VA decided they sounded like a danger to themselves. Not a mental health professional, the receptionist. If you want to push people further away from treatment criminalize mental health issues. For a large scale example all you need to do is look at the drug war. Plenty of folks who want and need treatment won't seek it out because they are afraid of being jailed for their addiction.

 

[jake23]

What happens when people stop seeking medical treatment for mental illness out of fear the government will come take away their second amendment rights?

They already have...... I know a lot of fellow veterans who won’t admit to any anxiety or ptsd issues for fear of losing gun rights. Being in CA may exacerbate this fear, so it is probably is different in other states. Particularly ones that are 2A friendly.

 

[Losing_Sanity]

The due process part is a real concern. Especially with veterans & scenarios like Cush lays out. But I think you can get around that with some thought.

But new gun control laws without trying to understand and fix the Root problem of so much anger & hate in this country won't do what we want. People are despondent & feel unvalued. They feel alone & unsupported. We need to change that.

I agree with you.

At some point, where does it stop? There are realistically several other areas/things that cost more lives than unstable people with a firearm. Can't red flag everything and can't protect everyone and no system is perfect. To some degree, families need to help more with the warning signs. IMO....

Like most, I wish I had a great answer to fix it all.

 

[Gila]

The history lesson to be observed is: any government in history that has used fear to enact laws to protect the citizen from himself has abolished Democracy.

 

[JohnCushman]

They already have...... I know a lot of fellow veterans who won’t admit to any anxiety or ptsd issues for fear of losing gun rights. Being in CA may exacerbate this fear, so it is probably is different in other states. Particularly ones that are 2A friendly.

I am quite the opposite. I have severe PTSD and social anxiety as well as bi-polar depression due to combat. I see my shrink every other month and my social worker therapist every other week. We have all talked at great length about my fears about having my guns taken away from me, and both told me there's no chance of that happening with me because I follow my medications and therapy requirements to the T. So, if veterans aren't seeking treatment, then it's their own faults when something happens and it's found out they have PTSD or something related from combat and aren't seeking treatment and the situation becomes worse for them. My doctor and therapist make sure to add in my notes that I'm not a danger to myself or anyone else.

Something along these lines happened to me last year, but in a child custody issue, not gun related. When my ex wife took off, out of spite she contacted my youngest son's mother and filled her full of a bunch of BS and lies, so in turn his mother withheld my summer visitation due to my 'mental health issues'. Well, a letter from my social worker and a court hearing discredited her as well as my ex's claims and in turn ended up doubling my visitation and giving his mother a hefty fine and contempt of court charge.

In a way I can see how the red flag laws could be useful, when not used for spite. But, I think it should be a professional of some sort...doctor, social worker, police, ambulance crew...who determines the need to remove the guns. If someone voices a concern, then have a professional step in to make the determination of if the guns need to be removed or not. Don't let some random person make an accusation and in turn have someone's house raided and guns removed without due process because of a grudge. Leave it up to a professional, not someone pissed off at someone.

 

[Losing_Sanity]

I am quite the opposite. I have severe PTSD and social anxiety as well as bi-polar depression due to combat. I see my shrink every other month and my social worker therapist every other week. We have all talked at great length about my fears about having my guns taken away from me, and both told me there's no chance of that happening with me because I follow my medications and therapy requirements to the T. So, if veterans aren't seeking treatment, then it's their own faults when something happens and it's found out they have PTSD or something related from combat and aren't seeking treatment and the situation becomes worse for them. My doctor and therapist make sure to add in my notes that I'm not a danger to myself or anyone else.

Something along these lines happened to me last year, but in a child custody issue, not gun related. When my ex wife took off, out of spite she contacted my youngest son's mother and filled her full of a bunch of BS and lies, so in turn his mother withheld my summer visitation due to my 'mental health issues'. Well, a letter from my social worker and a court hearing discredited her as well as my ex's claims and in turn ended up doubling my visitation and giving his mother a hefty fine.

In a way I can see how the red flag laws could be useful, when not used for spite. But, I think it should be a professional of some sort...doctor, social worker, police, ambulance crew...who determines the need to remove the guns. If someone voices a concern, then have a professional step in to make the determination of if the guns need to be removed or not. Don't let some random person make an accusation and in turn have someone's house raided and guns removed without due process because of a grudge. Leave it up to a professional, not someone pissed off at someone.

It's not a woman bashing deal, but a pissed off baby momma can make a guys life a living hell...

 

[jake23]

I am quite the opposite. I have severe PTSD and social anxiety as well as bi-polar depression due to combat. I see my shrink every other month and my social worker therapist every other week. We have all talked at great length about my fears about having my guns taken away from me, and both told me there's no chance of that happening with me because I follow my medications and therapy requirements to the T. So, if veterans aren't seeking treatment, then it's their own faults when something happens and it's found out they have PTSD or something related from combat and aren't seeking treatment and the situation becomes worse for them. My doctor and therapist make sure to add in my notes that I'm not a danger to myself or anyone else.

Something along these lines happened to me last year, but in a child custody issue, not gun related. When my ex wife took off, out of spite she contacted my youngest son's mother and filled her full of a bunch of BS and lies, so in turn his mother withheld my summer visitation due to my 'mental health issues'. Well, a letter from my social worker and a court hearing discredited her as well as my ex's claims and in turn ended up doubling my visitation and giving his mother a hefty fine and contempt of court charge.

In a way I can see how the red flag laws could be useful, when not used for spite. But, I think it should be a professional of some sort...doctor, social worker, police, ambulance crew...who determines the need to remove the guns. If someone voices a concern, then have a professional step in to make the determination of if the guns need to be removed or not. Don't let some random person make an accusation and in turn have someone's house raided and guns removed without due process because of a grudge. Leave it up to a professional, not someone pissed off at someone.

You should be proud of the fact that you can talk about problems like that without feeling any fear. I wish everyone could be like that. I know it’s not easy, but it is a process in the road to healing.

Keep fighting the fight!