Prehistoric hunting?

[turbobrick]

I just finished reading George Frison's Survival by Hunting: Prehistoric Human Predators and Animal Prey. Personally, I really enjoyed the book, and to my non-archaeologist mind most if it made excellent sense. One thing that did make me wonder, was the section about net trapping sheep. I have personally observed petroglyphs that depict net-like shapes in conjunction with animal figures, so I fully believe that sheep were hunted this way. Where I was wondering though, is about the conclusion that the sheep once netted, would then be clubbed to death.

It seems to me, that clubbing a bighorn to death would be rather difficult with the large horns covering much of the head surface, plus their adaptation to shaking off repeated head butting making them resilient in that arena. It also seems to me that clubbing would be more likely to damage the net between club and horn than a well placed spear or dart thrust through a net opening would. I imagine that few, if any, humans of the historical era have ever attempted to club one to death (and even less likely someone here), but with the breadth of knowledge assembled here I thought there would at least be some informed opinions.

 

[dcopas78]

More than likely death by a thousand "clubs". Prehistoric Americans hunted in large groups the majority of the time so it wasn't just a few people clubbing, but many. Guess they liked to tenderize their meat as they killed it

 

[rwc101]

I imagine a club to the back of the skull would do a bit more damage than clubbing their horns.

 

[Wildabeest]

Clubbing should be reserved for baby seals.

 

[turbobrick]

I imagine a club to the back of the skull would do a bit more damage than clubbing their horns.

I agree, but it seems like that would be a tough spot to hit. Plus many of the dead heads they find at the sites, or put into trees years and years ago are intact and not crushed in.

 

[lodgepoleJoe]

I would think low on the back of the skull might break the neck.

 

[WildWill]

A good hit where the spine and skull meet will end most anything quick. But I see your point with the horns and net in the way. While chasing hogs with dogs I've seen quite a few ended with a quick stab behind the armpit while being pinned. Just speculation but I would think a nice long bone, antler, or fire hardened wood dagger or a javelin/short spear stuck in the right spot on a netted sheep would probably be more proficient than a club.

 

[turbobrick]

A good hit where the spine and skull meet will end most anything quick. But I see your point with the horns and net in the way. While chasing hogs with dogs I've seen quite a few ended with a quick stab behind the armpit while being pinned. Just speculation but I would think a nice long bone, antler, or fire hardened wood dagger or a javelin/short spear stuck in the right spot on a netted sheep would probably be more proficient than a club.

He spends a ton of the book focusing on bison jump sites, and discussing how most of them would have immobilized the bison, but not killed them. They found lots of evidence that the bison were killed with points of some type, and never discussed them being clubbed. I'd think that a netted sheep would be easier than a wounded bison to stab with pretty much anything marginally sharp.

 

[BrentD]

What makes you think they were clubbing or even attempting to net rams? Most of the time, sheep are in bachelor herds and ewe-lamb groups. I suspect the latter would be more likely.

I have never heard of prehistoric humans hunting in especially large bands.

 

[turbobrick]

What makes you think they were clubbing or even attempting to net rams? Most of the time, sheep are in bachelor herds and ewe-lamb groups. I suspect the latter would be more likely.

I have never heard of prehistoric humans hunting in especially large bands.

They had some evidence that rams were harvested in areas where there were natural or man enhanced traps that would have concentrated them into areas where they would be netted. There was evidence of rams in the Gatecliff site. There is way more evidence of group hunting of bison, but there is evidence of very large numbers (150+) of hunters participating in those drives. They were speculating that due to the large amount of labor involved in developing the trap areas for sheep, that large numbers of people would have been involved. With the bison they can narrow the time of harvest due to calf tooth eruption. They don't have as much data on sheep, but all that to say, since they weren't constrained by season they could have harvested at any time of year, even during the rut.

 

[EYJONAS!]

All's I know is I feel like a real pussy. I've been chasing sheep for 5 years and haven't been able to find a ram I wanna take. Let alone club one to death........ as I'm sipping Starbucks Via Instant Coffee

 

[WildWill]

He spends a ton of the book focusing on bison jump sites, and discussing how most of them would have immobilized the bison, but not killed them. They found lots of evidence that the bison were killed with points of some type, and never discussed them being clubbed. I'd think that a netted sheep would be easier than a wounded bison to stab with pretty much anything marginally sharp.

Just found a used copy on amazon for 25 bucks will be here Monday. Sounds like a interesting read.

 

[turbobrick]

Just found a used copy on amazon for 25 bucks will be here Monday. Sounds like a interesting read.

Its a great read. I wish the author had consulted with a modern wildlife biologist and updated his knowledge on the North American Model, but other than that, I found it informative, thought provoking, and entertaining.

 

[Mudder]

A side note near the Danube River they hunt sheep from covered bunkers in the ground. When I asked why, most said that was the way they had always done it. I hypothesized that sheep don't expect predators to come out of the ground. Kind of like the reverse of a high seat for Deer.

Thrusting spear and throwing spear. Throwing spear was long and light, the thrusting spear was sturdy and shorter. I've seen some of the artifacts. Homo Sapien, Homo Erectus and Homo Heidelberges

Some of the oldest Homo Sapiens in Europe settled around the Danube or Inn river valley, glaciating didn't reach that far. There was a habitable strip between the southern edge of the glaciation and the Alps. There are small museums in the area with artifacts from early man, really interesting.

 

[Panda Bear]

What makes you think they were clubbing or even attempting to net rams? Most of the time, sheep are in bachelor herds and ewe-lamb groups. I suspect the latter would be more likely.

I have never heard of prehistoric humans hunting in especially large bands.

Brent makes a good point. Not sure about the timing, but "supposedly" 1000's of years ago my ancestors were pretty good with a spear. Musk Ox, Whales, Caribou, Polar Bears. Caribou while there were swimming, Musk Ox and Polar Bear using dogs and spears.
Possibly they used nets to catch the Ram and then a spear to the heart. Just a thought as I was not there, but my great-great-great-great-great- etc etc etc grandfather was

 

[dcopas78]

Tukudeka - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Sheep hunters and their method. Shoshone

 

[BrentD]

Turbobrick, if they had evidence of rams, then I guess rams were on the menu also. Perhaps they clubbed ewes and speared rams? I would think that the clubbing would be pretty discernible from the bones - lots of shattered atlas vertebrae and skull plates, damaged horns, etc. I had a grad student that had worked on buffalo drops in Nebraska, and all of that work suggested pretty small bands of people as I understood it. I suppose there was lots of variability however.

dcopas78, that wiki page is REALLY interesting. I can't imagine the traps that it describes. Thanks for that. Sure would like to find one of those soapstone pots and a horn bow.

Panda, my ancestors were pretty good at clubbing and spearing I suppose all of us had good spearers and clubbers in our heritage or we would not be here now. Not THAT long ago, mine were clubbing moose in valleys in Norway. It was a major industry that tribal chieftains (for lack of a better term) used to pay their soldiers in meat. An entire river valley would be spanned by a low fence with intermittent gaps in the fence where a small, narrow pit would be found with a mound of dirt on either end. In the spring, migrating moose would come down the valley and go for the fresh greens that would first sprout on the mounds peeking out of the snow. When stepping from one mound to the other, they would step into the pit and be unable to get out, although the pits were not much more than a meter deep. At that point, apparently, men rushed up and clubbed the animal to death, dragged it off for processing and while waiting for the next to come drifting down the fence.

In such valleys, nearly 100% of the moose were harvested, and it would be about 10 yrs before they returned to repeat the harvest at that location. Valleys were doled out to chieftains by some sort of higher government, and if they did not use the harvest in a timely fashion, it would be reallocated to someone that would.

Somewhere I have analog pictures of an excavated fence and pit system with the anthropologist that told us this story near Lillehammer, Norway a year or two before it was flooded for a reservoir and then developed for the 1994 Winter Olympics.

 

[WildWill]

Tukudeka - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Sheep hunters and their method. Shoshone

Very cool info! The spiraling trap system with a "cattle guard" made of logs sounds interesting. With their intimate knowledge of the land and the habits of there prey I'm sure it was effective.

 

[lodgepoleJoe]

Brent makes a good point. Not sure about the timing, but "supposedly" 1000's of years ago my ancestors were pretty good with a spear. Musk Ox, Whales, Caribou, Polar Bears. Caribou while there were swimming, Musk Ox and Polar Bear using dogs and spears.
Possibly they used nets to catch the Ram and then a spear to the heart. Just a thought as I was not there, but my great-great-great-great-great- etc etc etc grandfather was

Polar bears with a spear? I would have to pass on that one.

 

[Ben Long]

I once hiked in Glacier Park with an anthropologist who recorded sheep-hunting drive paths that dated back 8,000 years or so. The funnel paths were set in series of green rocks piled on the ground. Totally invisible unless you had a trained eye, but then perfectly obvious once they were pointed out. They could determine the rough age by the growth of lichens on the rocks. We also found flakes of obsidian in high mountain passes, well above timberline, left by sheep hunters. I took that to indicate the hunters were finishing off the sheep with spears. The obsidian was toted up from Yellowstone country, several hundred miles away. One of the shortcomings of growing up in the US is we are taught to think 200 years is a long time. It isn't.