Political Correctness...it's very own thread of candor

[James Riley]

You have your thoughts and feeling and I have mine. I'm not debating the legitimacy of the Iraq or Afghan wars. I call a spade a spade. They have a uniform and a mission. This root of the outcry at least from my individual person is this administrations underestimation of this threat from day one. To call them the JV of the middle east was a gross underestimation. To not call them what they are, which is a radical Islamic group of terrorist set to destroy every other race that is not like them is worse then Hilter and the Nazi Germans (which I believe if they had been left unchecked and allowed to exterminate the Jews would not have stopped there) the only difference is they do not have a defined recognized geographic location that I am aware of. I am all for dealing harshly with any and every country that is harboring or aiding them.

This whole notion that calling them what they are gives them some form of credibility is crazy. The entire world knows who and what they are (save a few media challenged countries). Not calling them what they are confuses Muslims and lumps them in with this group of radicals and gives them no ground to stand and say yes I am an Muslim and I practice Islam, but I detest the practices of this radical group. As hard as it is to believe I have friends and acquaintences that are Muslim. They themselves call them extremists and do not in any way shape or form condone the actions of ISIS. They want it known that they are not of the same belief. This Ideology we are fighting is a very recent form of Islam in the grand scheme of things. This very act is pitting America and the world against ALL Muslims.

Your spade was not always a spade and they didn't always have uniforms. It was only after we legitimized them as "enemies" in "war" (as opposed to the criminal P'sOS that they are), that they begin to rise from a rag-tag group of cave dwellers in A-Stan to what we have today. You actually made my point when you said "This whole notion that calling them what they are gives them some form of credibility is crazy." Our failure to call them what they were, and to treat them as what there were (criminals and fugitives), lead directly to what they are (a State, with uniforms and an army recruiting far and wide). We gave them a legitimacy that acts as a recruitment tool to aspiring jihadists everywhere, just as our young men join our Army out of a sense of patriotic duty. Where there was no war, we made one. Not to mention placing most of a real Army (Iraq) on the street after invasion.

I don't care if you call them Radical Muslim Extremists. That was NOT my point. My point was calling them "enemy combatants" and "enemy" and treating them like prisoners of war. If any Muslim is confused about the difference between a criminal or a fugitive and themselves, then that is their problem. If they can't find some ground to stand on and say they detest criminals and criminal acts, then they are part of the problem. This isn't about religion. It's about crime. But we Fked up and made it about religion by even recognizing their argument. That would be like calling the KKK "radicalized Christian Extremists." They are not. They are Fking criminal thugs and no Christian has any problem finding ground to stand on to say so and no Christian is confused about that.

 

[James Riley]

So shifting gears how should we fight ISIS/ISIL? Label them Criminals? I don't know how far the reach of our law enforcement power are but I doubt they reach into Afganistan, Pakistan, Libya, Syria, Iraq, Yemen, Saudi Arabia etc. We can't begin to kill them all unless it is a declared out right war and we are willing to destroy their cities and spend untold blood and treasure to root them out.

It is a little late now, but that would have worked in the beginning. Patience used to be a virtue. We also had more avenues (economic, etc) before, but they too required patience. I have an opinion on how it could work again, like a reset button, but the details are long and complex and would take quite a while to lay out here. And, as usual, they would not sit well with those on the right who need instant gratification and glory to get their rocks off. (I'm not implying you).

 

[Tufrthnails]

Your spade was not always a spade and they didn't always have uniforms. It was only after we legitimized them as "enemies" in "war" (as opposed to the criminal P'sOS that they are), that they begin to rise from a rag-tag group of cave dwellers in A-Stan to what we have today. You actually made my point when you said "This whole notion that calling them what they are gives them some form of credibility is crazy." Our failure to call them what they were, and to treat them as what there were (criminals and fugitives), lead directly to what they are (a State, with uniforms and an army recruiting far and wide). We gave them a legitimacy that acts as a recruitment tool to aspiring jihadists everywhere, just as our young men join our Army out of a sense of patriotic duty. Where there was no war, we made one. Not to mention placing most of a real Army (Iraq) on the street after invasion.

I don't care if you call them Radical Muslim Extremists. That was NOT my point. My point was calling them "enemy combatants" and "enemy" and treating them like prisoners of war. If any Muslim is confused about the difference between a criminal or a fugitive and themselves, then that is their problem. If they can't find some ground to stand on and say they detest criminals and criminal acts, then they are part of the problem. This isn't about religion. It's about crime. But we Fked up and made it about religion by even recognizing their argument. That would be like calling the KKK "radicalized Christian Extremists." They are not. They are Fking criminal thugs and no Christian has any problem finding ground to stand on to say so and no Christian is confused about that.

I am fine with your belief it is yours. I completely disagree. I had a way too long of a reason typed out, but honestly I don't feel you care to hear it and I don't have any background with you. I don't know your background dealing personally with muslims or radical Islamists or taliban or whatever you wish to call them. I know my experience and the utter brutality I have witnessed first hand. I will leave this to say this country is playing with fire and should thank there lucky stars and kiss the feet of every Warrior in this great nation. It will need those that hunt the things that go bump in the night soon enough. Until there is a clean and concise statement that we will put up with no form of Radical Islam we will continue to fight this evil as the world has since 633AD.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ERSSUDLqik

 

[James Riley]

I am fine with your belief it is yours. I completely disagree. I had a way too long of a reason typed out, but honestly I don't feel you care to hear it and I don't have any background with you. I don't know your background dealing personally with muslims or radical Islamists or taliban or whatever you wish to call them. I know my experience and the utter brutality I have witnessed first hand. I will leave this to say this country is playing with fire and should thank there lucky stars and kiss the feet of every Warrior in this great nation. It will need those that hunt the things that go bump in the night soon enough. Until there is a clean and concise statement that we will put up with no form of Radical Islam we will continue to fight this evil as the world has since 633AD.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ERSSUDLqik

All I have working for me is situational awareness, history and experience. First you say "This Ideology we are fighting is a very recent form of Islam in the grand scheme of things." And then you say "Until there is a clean and concise statement that we will put up with no form of Radical Islam we will continue to fight this evil as the world has since 633AD." Whatever. AQ wasn't much until the 1990s when we started to treat them like North Vietnam.

 

[RobG]

Nemont - I think we are pretty close in our thinking. I'm glad I'm not tasked with solving this problem because I couldn't do it.

A couple months ago my team (including one Muslim) were sitting in a Texas bar sharing the table with 4 Japanese engineers. We talked business, hiking in Yellowstone, hunting elk and A River Runs Through It. Our fathers and grandfathers probably hated each other and maybe traded gun fire.

 

[Tufrthnails]

All I have working for me is situational awareness, history and experience. First you say "This Ideology we are fighting is a very recent form of Islam in the grand scheme of things." And then you say "Until there is a clean and concise statement that we will put up with no form of Radical Islam we will continue to fight this evil as the world has since 633AD." Whatever.

I am referring to the fact that the first four books of the Bible are the same as the Koran. It wasn't until Mohammed added the evil we speak of which is relatively new form of religion in the big picture. They are doing exactly what they ("Radical Islamist") are told to do per the madman Mohammad. Truth be told all Islamist that do not follow Mohammed and his teachings are not practicing per the religion. Obviously you disagree with me. I have gone way further down this rat hole then I typically do with people especially those that have no real life experiences with this terrorists mentality. Do your own research. Don't eat the liberal or conservative rhetoric. Just a little stat that I heard while doing some research. Islam is the bloodiest religion on the planet tagged with 270 million lives.

 

[James Riley]

I have gone way further down this rat hole then I typically do with people especially those that have no real life experiences with this terrorists mentality.

And yet you continue.

Christianity makes Islam pale in comparison when factoring in all the indigs. But you keep your hate on. I know men who will never stop hating Japanese, Germans, Koreans and Vietnamese because they saw and experienced things that would probably make you faint. Apparently what you saw was bad. Get over it. Your bigotry is part of the problem.

 

[schmalts]

The second falsehood was an implication that the radical Muslims could take over the US in 30-40 years and we would turn into a Sharia law governed society. I hear this fear so much. These guys are barely past setting their underwear on fire in their attacks against us.

What about that happening in France, Germany, or other countries? Ask a few people who live in France if they think that could happen there, report back.

 

[Tufrthnails]

And yet you continue.

Christianity makes Islam pale in comparison when factoring in all the indigs. But you keep your hate on. I know men who will never stop hating Japanese, Germans, Koreans and Vietnamese because they saw and experienced things that would probably make you faint. Apparently what you saw was bad. Get over it. Your bigotry is part of the problem.

But I do not hate Muslims but Islam in and of itself. It is not the religion of peace that you want to believe do your research read the Koran if you want to profess this peaceful religion where everyone holds hands and lives in harmony. Christianity is not innocent either as history proves, but the worst thing I have to worry about a Christian doing is wanting to pray for my soul. Like I said you disagree as do I. Nothing positive is coming from this conversation. I'm out.

 

[RobG]

What about that happening in France, Germany, or other countries? Ask a few people who live in France if they think that could happen there, report back.

Given all the irrational fear some have in the US I have no doubt some people in other countries "think" it could happen to them. I'm not sure what it would solve, but I guess I could ask my Muslim friend in Amsterdam...

Think about this for a second. The 9/11 bombings were relatively sophisticated, yet it isn't even conceivable how that act alone could have overthrown our democracy. In the 15 years that have followed the most sophisticated US attacker lit his gonads on fire. These guys aren't progressing very fast.

This latest tragedy seems to be a deranged person doing a copycat crime of the Paris attacks (which didn't come close to overthrowing the government). It was a horrible personal tragedy, but none of these acts even came close to overthrowing any western government. In fact, they have lessened the likelihood of it happening.

 

[James Riley]

. . . the worst thing I have to worry about a Christian doing is wanting to pray for my soul.

You should go back and read, or re-read, my post in this thread about *why* the only thing you have to worry about a Christian doing is wanting to pray for your soul. Further, I never said Islam was a religion of peace. I specifically said I think all religions are stupid. But, in a secular State well founded on liberal principles, they can survive and even thrive, in peace.

 

[James Riley]

Given all the irrational fear some have in the US I have no doubt some people in other countries "think" it could happen to them. I'm not sure what it would solve, but I guess I could ask my Muslim friend in Amsterdam...

Think about this for a second. The 9/11 bombings were relatively sophisticated, yet it isn't even conceivable how that act alone could have overthrown our democracy. In the 15 years that have followed the most sophisticated US attacker lit his gonads on fire. These guys aren't progressing very fast.

This latest tragedy seems to be a deranged person doing a copycat crime of the Paris attacks (which didn't come close to overthrowing the government). It was a horrible personal tragedy, but none of these acts even came close to overthrowing and western government. In fact, they have lessened the likelihood of it happening.

I agree. If there is an existential threat to the U.S. it comes from us. And, notwithstanding all the infighting, I think we are still strong and doing rather well, relatively speaking.

Same with Europe. Those people went through two World Wars in less than 40 years, inflicting unprecedented slaughter. If they went on a "Crusade", in a matter of a few years you would not find a Muslim left alive north of Turkey. No one should believe their social/liberal/pacifist spouting would somehow be their down-fall. Like a friend of mine once said: Those California Beach Bums may look and sound like peaceniks but just take away their surf boards and you will find unparalleled war fighters.

 

[Gerald Martin]

Nemont - I think we are pretty close in our thinking. I'm glad I'm not tasked with solving this problem because I couldn't do it.

A couple months ago my team (including one Muslim) were sitting in a Texas bar sharing the table with 4 Japanese engineers. We talked business, hiking in Yellowstone, hunting elk and A River Runs Through It. Our fathers and grandfathers probably hated each other and maybe traded gun fire.

RobG your experience with Muslim mirrors mine when I spent 3 months in Bangladesh back in 2000.

(the rest of this post is not directed at you Rob, just my throwing my $.02 in the arena of ideas)

The VAST majority of Muslims want nothing more than to make a good living for themselves and their family and live in peace in society. I do not fear them or begrudge them the right to worship as they see fit. However, and a big however, those same Muslims are held to be apostate by those who share the same ideology and theology as ISIS and are marked for death by radical extremists. The very fact that they see fit to live in peace and harmony with the rest of a pluralistic society causes them to be viewed as having departed from the "true faith of Islam" by ISIS.
The Koran and Hadith teach and Mohammed led by example of forcing conversion to Islam and killing of any who would not become Muslim or pay the jizya tax to have the ability to practice their own religion.

To look at radical Islamic groups such as ISIS and not acknowledge or address the influence that their religion has on their motives and actions is very foolish. To them their religion is everything. It is not just a spiritual belief or private practice. Religion shapes their entire world view, governs almost every area of everyday life and society. There is no such thing as separation of government and religion (church and state) in Islam. The practice of killing unbelievers and advancing Islam by coercion and force is consistent with the teachings of Islam and the example of Mohammed's life. Granted, very few Muslims percentage wise adhere to this theological branch of Islam. The theology of ISIS is shaped and influenced in part by the Wahhabi sect of Islam, based mostly in Saudi Arabia and spread extensively in the past few decades by literature, Islamic schools and the funding and building of mosques.

The actions of ISIS are allowed and accepted within a fundamental Sunni Islamic worldview, even if most Muslims have no wish to participate and find their actions distasteful or disgusting.


Granted, people have done terrible things in the name of Christianity and Christ, but those atrocities are committed in direct violation to both New Testament teaching and by Jesus' life and example. Jesus taught "love and forgive your enemies", "return good for evil". Contrast that to Mohammed's teaching “When the sacred months are over slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them.” Quran 9:5

“Prophet, make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal rigorously with them. Hell shall be their home: an evil fate.” Quran 9:73

“Believers, make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Deal firmly with them. Know that God is with the righteous.” Quran 9:123

“Believers, take neither the Jews nor the Christians for your friends. They are friends with one another…” Quran 5:51



This is a really informative piece from The Atlantic entiled "What ISIS Really Wants". http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/03/what-isis-really-wants/384980/ It's an in depth article detailing interviews with ISIS sympathizers and missionaries letting them share their goals and views in their own words.

If a person can't sort through the fact that not all religious views are equal in moral truth or value to society and some teachings are down right evil, I wonder how he can make any discernment of what is acceptable and unacceptable at all?

 

[Gerald Martin]

You got me thinking here. OK so I like light more than darkness, BUT, I have to wear sunglasses because the light is to bright for my eyes.

Your take? I don't think there's anything to explain that in the Bible.

Shoots-straight, not really sure if you are being perhaps a little bit flippant in your question, but your remarks are more profound than you could ever imagine. To answer your question, yes there is quite a bit to explain that in the Bible. If you notice the L in Light is capitalized. Jesus is personified as Light,shining truth and revealing the darkness of our own hearts, revealing our need for a Savior. I too, like everyone else, would prefer to wear sunglasses and hide from having too much light shined into the dark recesses of my motives and pathetic performance. One more quote from Jesus, "And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." The big question is are we willing to know truth?

 

[James Riley]

The theology of ISIS is shaped and influenced in part by the Wahhabi sect of Islam, based mostly in Saudi Arabia and spread extensively in the past few decades by literature, Islamic schools and the funding and building of mosques.

And every time WE fill up our tank, WE fund it. People road Richard Nixon like a borrowed mule when he lowered the speed limit to 55 and they laughed at Jimmy Carter when he wore a sweater in the White House and turned down the thermostat, trying to lead by example. Those Saudis would be riding camels to the next oasis and shooting black powder weapons if WE were not addicted to oil like crack whores for the last 75 years. And every President and environmentalist has been trying to wean us since forever, but somehow WE think it's okay to be in bed with those people. Because WE want immediate gratification and cheap. WE *thought* the costs were externalized but, as the laws of physics dictate, for each action . . .

In short, there is nuance in this world that allows any sorting of religious moral truth or value to society to get lost in our own BS about what is acceptable and unacceptable.

And with that, I'm gonna hit the rack.

 

[MTGomer]

And every time WE fill up our tank, WE fund it. People road Richard Nixon like a borrowed mule when he lowered the speed limit to 55 and they laughed at Jimmy Carter when he wore a sweater in the White House and turned down the thermostat, trying to lead by example. Those Saudis would be riding camels to the next oasis and shooting black powder weapons if WE were not addicted to oil like crack whores for the last 75 years. And every President and environmentalist has been trying to wean us since forever, but somehow WE think it's okay to be in bed with those people. Because WE want immediate gratification and cheap. WE *thought* the costs were externalized but, as the laws of physics dictate, for each action . . .

In short, there is nuance in this world that allows any sorting of religious moral truth or value to society to get lost in our own BS about what is acceptable and unacceptable.

And with that, I'm gonna hit the rack.

And unfortunately in the fight to wean us off often centers around obstructing domestic production, instead of reducing domestic demand. Without a decrease in demand, every barrel not collected here, is one purchased from Saudi, who really are our friends.
You don't fix an alcoholic by telling him he has to stop buying at 7/11 and start buying from Holiday, you help him not crave/need alcohol

 

[James Riley]

And unfortunately in the fight to wean us off often centers around obstructing domestic production, instead of reducing domestic demand. Without a decrease in demand, every barrel not collected here, is one purchased from Saudi, who really are our friends.
You don't fix an alcoholic by telling him he has to stop buying at 7/11 and start buying from Holiday, you help him not crave/need alcohol

Yes.

I wish we'd remove subsidies for it and transfer them, dollar for dollar, to alternatives. As to the Saudi being our friends, I think there are those within their power who are our enemies and use our payments to fund terrorism. A true friend would root them out and do as they do over there.

 

[schmalts]

So the real tough question to answer is this, do you want the USA to follow down the path France and Germany has of lately? There is no doubt France is in a dangerous state as far as tension and uprising.

 

[tjones]

So the real tough question to answer is this, do you want the USA to follow down the path France and Germany has of lately? There is no doubt France is in a dangerous state as far as tension and uprising.

You can't seriously believe this. Comparing France and the US is just plain silly.

 

[noharleyyet]

Tony, in your opinion, is silly the same thing as inconceivable? I'm curious.