Nosler/Tikka Compatibility? (help)

[ImBillT]

The datum on a SAAMI maximum case is 1.634” and the datum on the minim chamber is 1.630”. In other words, the case can be .004” longer at the shoulder than the chamber and both can still be within spec. When accuracy is the goal, a tight fit of the case in the chamber is good. Some companies like Tikka will try to keep their chambers near the minimum spec, and some ammo companies like Nosler, Norma, Lapua will try to make their cases near the maximum spec. That could be the issue you’re experiencing. I wouldn’t worry about it as long as you can cycle it reasonably for hunting situations.

 

[Wildabeest]

I just had this same problem with a used Tikka T3x 6.5 Creedmoor I bought. Bought two boxes of Nosler Ballistic Tip 140gr and not a single one of them would allow the action to close. Federal Non-Typcial 140gr cycled just fine and shot 3/4” MOA. I contacted Nosler and they indicated that they do encounter issues with some Tikka rifles not cycling their ammo. I’ve returned the ammo to them and they are going to check the tolerances and let me know.

I have another T3x in 300WSM and it loves Nosler ammo. I run 180gr Accubonds thru it and have never had a single issue.

Here is the initial response from Nosler. Kudos to their customer service - quick response and taking action!

You hit that right on the head, it’s a head space problem. Yes, this seems to be occurring with the TikKa rifles occasionally . My guess is that their chambers are near SAAMI minimum, but as they are built overseas they are under CIP (CIP – The European Equivalent of SAAMI) and this may attribute to it as well.​

Send me your address and I’ll have a pre-paid label emailed to you for returning those for exchange.​

 

[Don Fischer]

Couple thing's you can do. First try to chamber one and even if it goes in, pull the loaded round out and look around the ogive where it meet's the rifling. if the bullet is seated to far out there will be scratch's there and pressure may well jump. I kind of doubt that's it but could be. Next take a loaded round that chamber's hard and smoke the shoulder. Then run it through and pull it out and if the case is a bit to long, you'll scrape the smoke on the shoulder. One or the other should show! If Nosler is loading to an American standard min cartridge you should be fine. If they are loading to European standard, case might be a bit long. If you were to assume that the powder charge was alright, probably is, then the case is simply a bit long and will be alright to shoot. If you know someone that reloads for that cartridge, see if you can get them to pull the bullet and FL resize the case for you and then try the case in your rifle. Or, get a pair of plyer's and pull the bullet yourself and try feeding the case into your chamber. If you still have the problem, I'd guess you will, the case is simply sized for a bit larger chamber than you have. I have two 243's and because of that I have two set's of 243 dies, each rifle has it's own set. With the die set for one chamber the round will chamber in both rifles but set for the other chamber the round will not chamber in both, won't even chamber hard, simply won't chamber. When I partial size I start by neck sizing a case. Couple times and the case will no longer chamber it that rifle. I screw the die in a bit more and keep trying till the case chambers easily. Just because it chamber's easily in that rifle does not mean it will chamber in another rifle of the same cartridge, difference in chamber's. Most factory ammo is loaded to chamber in any rifle of that cartridge. To do that the case must be made to SAMMI min spec. If it's bigger it may not chamber in a min chamber. I suspect this is a bit confusing, point is different rifles of the same cartridge may have different chamber sizes, SAMMI min or SAMMI max. Factory cartridge's made for min chamber's will chamber in all rifles, cartridges set for excess of min won't. Factory's do not chamber one rifle and throw the reamer away, cost's to much so what the do is chamber for several till the reamer, starting at max, wears down to min. Walla different size chambers. To counter that ammunition companys make cartridges to fit all chamber's so their cartridge must chamber in a min chamber. And at the same time bullet's must be seated to a certain depth to insure they will clear all magazines and not stick out far enough to hit the lands. Seating out the bullet farther is a tweeking trick reloader's use to have a round conform to their individual rifle!

 

[Wildabeest]

Couple thing's you can do. First try to chamber one and even if it goes in, pull the loaded round out and look around the ogive where it meet's the rifling. if the bullet is seated to far out there will be scratch's there and pressure may well jump. I kind of doubt that's it but could be. Next take a loaded round that chamber's hard and smoke the shoulder. Then run it through and pull it out and if the case is a bit to long, you'll scrape the smoke on the shoulder. One or the other should show! If Nosler is loading to an American standard min cartridge you should be fine. If they are loading to European standard, case might be a bit long. If you were to assume that the powder charge was alright, probably is, then the case is simply a bit long and will be alright to shoot. If you know someone that reloads for that cartridge, see if you can get them to pull the bullet and FL resize the case for you and then try the case in your rifle. Or, get a pair of plyer's and pull the bullet yourself and try feeding the case into your chamber. If you still have the problem, I'd guess you will, the case is simply sized for a bit larger chamber than you have. I have two 243's and because of that I have two set's of 243 dies, each rifle has it's own set. With the die set for one chamber the round will chamber in both rifles but set for the other chamber the round will not chamber in both, won't even chamber hard, simply won't chamber. When I partial size I start by neck sizing a case. Couple times and the case will no longer chamber it that rifle. I screw the die in a bit more and keep trying till the case chambers easily. Just because it chamber's easily in that rifle does not mean it will chamber in another rifle of the same cartridge, difference in chamber's. Most factory ammo is loaded to chamber in any rifle of that cartridge. To do that the case must be made to SAMMI min spec. If it's bigger it may not chamber in a min chamber. I suspect this is a bit confusing, point is different rifles of the same cartridge may have different chamber sizes, SAMMI min or SAMMI max. Factory cartridge's made for min chamber's will chamber in all rifles, cartridges set for excess of min won't. Factory's do not chamber one rifle and throw the reamer away, cost's to much so what the do is chamber for several till the reamer, starting at max, wears down to min. Walla different size chambers. To counter that ammunition companys make cartridges to fit all chamber's so their cartridge must chamber in a min chamber. And at the same time bullet's must be seated to a certain depth to insure they will clear all magazines and not stick out far enough to hit the lands. Seating out the bullet farther is a tweeking trick reloader's use to have a round conform to their individual rifle!

Thanks Don. In my situation, I’m convinced it’s a headspace issue where the Tikka chambering is a bit on the tight side of the spec, and the Nosler cartridge is also on the tight side. Makes sense given both of them manufacture for best accuracy in a variety of gun/cartridge combos. In my case, the combo is just too tight. We’ll see if the replacements are any better. I asked them to replace them with Accubonds vs. BT’s since that’s what I really wanted but couldn’t find. That might get me into a different production run of casings as well that might work out better. We’ll see. If not, I’ll just have to go with some other brand.

So what out there in factory ammo is most comparable in penetration vs. expansion to Accubonds? My son will be hunting everything from antelope to mule deer to elk with this rifle, so I’m looking for something that will have good penetration on larger game. Not looking for a debate on whether a 6.5CM is a real elk rifle - you’d be preaching to the choir!

 

[ImBillT]

Thanks Don. In my situation, I’m convinced it’s a headspace issue where the Tikka chambering is a bit on the tight side of the spec, and the Nosler cartridge is also on the tight side. Makes sense given both of them manufacture for best accuracy in a variety of gun/cartridge combos. In my case, the combo is just too tight. We’ll see if the replacements are any better. I asked them to replace them with Accubonds vs. BT’s since that’s what I really wanted but couldn’t find. That might get me into a different production run of casings as well that might work out better. We’ll see. If not, I’ll just have to go with some other brand.

So what out there in factory ammo is most comparable in penetration vs. expansion to Accubonds? My son will be hunting everything from antelope to mule deer to elk with this rifle, so I’m looking for something that will have good penetration on larger game. Not looking for a debate on whether a 6.5CM is a real elk rifle - you’d be preaching to the choir!

You can always bump the shoulder in a full body die. You might get a near custom chamber/handloaded ammo level of accuracy.

 

[Wildabeest]

You can always bump the shoulder in a full body die. You might get a near custom chamber/handloaded ammo level of accuracy.

Agree. I’m not setup for reloading, so I really need to find some factory ammo that works. Given that the cheap (relatively) Federal ammo gave me under 1” MOA (it was less than 1/2” vertical and just over 3/4” horizontal with 10-15mph crosswind), I’m not too worried about accuracy. That’s also what’s leading me to think that even with the cheaper ammo it’s a good tight fit.

10 round sight in. First time I’d shot the rifle.

 

[ImBillT]

CIP minimum chamber specs for 6.5CM are .0005” longer than SAAMI, so if anything, if the Tikka meets CIP minimum chamber specs, then it is well within SAAMI specs. It’s most likely a case of Nosler being near SAAMI max on the case and Tikka being near SAAMI min on the chamber, which as mentioned above, for the 308Win, SAAMI allows a case .004” longer than the chamber. That’s not going to be all that easy to close a bolt on. Soma actions will be able to overcome that interference more easily than other actions.

Obviously most factory firearms won’t have that much interference, because unless they are very accuracy focused, they usually aim more for the middle of the spec. The same can be said of most ammo. Unless they’re really focusing on accuracy, manufacturers would normally aim more toward the mid to low range of the spec to insure easy chambering in any firearm while remaining safe.

 

[Michael Case]

Perhaps if you know a Good gun Smith you could have him check the "Head Space" that might give a clue to the problem

 

[Michael Case]

Perhaps if you know a Good gun Smith you could have him check the "Head Space" that might give a clue to the problem

Also in fire formed brass the brass takes on the dimension of the rifle it's shot in.
Change rifles, changes brass generally.
If you reload you can resize to fit any rifle but - otherwise brass fits one head space when fired.

 

[elkmo]

Doesn’t Norma make the Nosler brass?

 

[ImBillT]

Perhaps if you know a Good gun Smith you could have him check the "Head Space" that might give a clue to the problem

Any gunsmith, or anyone else, with a go gauge, could check the chamber, and it’s still possible to have trouble with a case at maximum SAAMI spec.

It’s slightly harder to check the case. When I build ammo for wildcats I bore a piece of barrel to the same diameter as the neck of my chamber, and use that to measure the case head to neck/shoulder junction of my case and compare it to what my chamber should be, and that’s where I set my dies for forming my wildcat brass. For a SAAMI standardized cartridge that has some amount of neck clearance and head spaces on the entire shoulder with a “datum” measurement, you would have to bore your measuring tool to the neck diameter of the piece of brass and then actually do some geometry to find out if the case was longer than it was supposed to be.

 

[ImBillT]

Doesn’t Norma make the Nosler brass?

They DID. Nosler bought a failed brass company(I don’t remember who) and now makes some of their own brass. I have a lot of 308Win brass that I bought thinking it would be Norma brass, and the quality is significantly lower than previous Nosler brass that had been made by Norma. So…it depends.

When considering buying the equipment of a company that went bankrupt, it should be obvious that their equipment COULD have been a part of the problem.

 

[Hammsolo]

I assuming running the bolt seats the bullet, so you could run the box through the gun before taking them into the field?

Careful with this. When I cycle the cartridge I inspect the case and bullet closely if it’s tight. If you see marks from the lands/rifling on the bullet this can be bad mojo. The problem? I bought a box of Remington for my 338 back in the day that was too long. One went in and came out with marks on the bullet. I tried another, and when I cycled the bolt… no bullet. It stuck to the lands! Powder dumped out. I didn’t try any more…

 

[Wildabeest]

Thanks guys. Given how well it’s shooting, my preference is to find ammo it likes vs. tweaking the gun. I see this as less of a “problem” and more of a “compatibility” issue. Maybe it’s time for me to jump into the reloading game and switch to Hammers (looking at you @mtmuley).

 

[mtmuley]

Thanks guys. Given how well it’s shooting, my preference is to find ammo it likes vs. tweaking the gun. I see this as less of a “problem” and more of a “compatibility” issue. Maybe it’s time for me to jump into the reloading game and switch to Hammers (looking at you @mtmuley).

Hammers are great bullets. Even though the owner is my best friend, it took a few years to get me away from my Accubonds. And he didn't care. You won't be sorry if you go that way. Tell Steve I sent you. mtmuley

 

[Michael Case]

A simple cheep way to check 2 different rifles ( even by the same mfg.)
Buy a cheep digital micrometer from some place like Harbor freight.
Get a cheep bullet puller, not pliers to remove the bullets from 2 cartridges. Pour out the powder.
Run them into a rifle they fit and pop the primers.
Then smoke the entire brass case and put each through one rifle - check the marks with the mike's and you will find the difference in headspace.
And the reason one feeds and one doesn't

 

[ImBillT]

Thanks guys. Given how well it’s shooting, my preference is to find ammo it likes vs. tweaking the gun. I see this as less of a “problem” and more of a “compatibility” issue. Maybe it’s time for me to jump into the reloading game and switch to Hammers (looking at you @mtmuley).

Or get into the reloading game and try multiple different bullets/brands.

 

[EastTNHunter]

They DID. Nosler bought a failed brass company(I don’t remember who) and now makes some of their own brass. I have a lot of 308Win brass that I bought thinking it would be Norma brass, and the quality is significantly lower than previous Nosler brass that had been made by Norma. So…it depends.

When considering buying the equipment of a company that went bankrupt, it should be obvious that their equipment COULD have been a part of the problem.

Silver State Armory, or SSA, was the company that they bought out. Nosler brass used to be considered premium brass before then, but not anymore. Not saying that it’s bad, just not Norma quality anymore

 

[Don Fischer]

Thanks Don. In my situation, I’m convinced it’s a headspace issue where the Tikka chambering is a bit on the tight side of the spec, and the Nosler cartridge is also on the tight side. Makes sense given both of them manufacture for best accuracy in a variety of gun/cartridge combos. In my case, the combo is just too tight. We’ll see if the replacements are any better. I asked them to replace them with Accubonds vs. BT’s since that’s what I really wanted but couldn’t find. That might get me into a different production run of casings as well that might work out better. We’ll see. If not, I’ll just have to go with some other brand.

So what out there in factory ammo is most comparable in penetration vs. expansion to Accubonds? My son will be hunting everything from antelope to mule deer to elk with this rifle, so I’m looking for something that will have good penetration on larger game. Not looking for a debate on whether a 6.5CM is a real elk rifle - you’d be preaching to the choir!

I haven't bought factory ammo in years. Not knowing what's out there I'd suggest looking for ammo loaded with bonded bullet's. And I don't know if they make loaded ammo but years ago I used Speer Hot Core bullet's and they held together and retained weight like you wouldn't believe. Last year I went back to them in my 6.5x55 but haven't shot anything yet. I'm using 140gr Hot Cores in it. thing about bullet's is if you drive them hard enough velocity is gonna do some amount on damage on impact. Because of that years ago I got away from most super fast lighter bullet's and went to mid range and heavier bullet's. Those new monolithic bullet's overcome the problem as I've never heard of one coming apart but I cringe at the cost of them and worry about the seating depth needed to make them fit a magazine and stay off the lands.

Lot of stuff is claimed for different bullet's but chosen wisely and used properly most any bullet will work. Probably one of the most successful bullet's around is the Remington core lock. Lot of people don't like it because it's a cup and core but it has been getting the job done for a lot of year. Raise the weight a bit and lower the velocity some and it will work. Good luck to ya!For myself if I had a 6.5 Creedmoor I'd look hard at a 140gr bullet in a lead core bullet. Not sure what is out there in monolithic but the lighter copper bullet is gonna require deeper seating I would think. Of course in factory ammo what ever you get should fit the rifle it was made for and probably will.

 

[Brad97]

FYI… I spoke with Nosler customer service, this is a known issue with some Tikka and Sako rifles (they had a detailed explanation but it went over my head because I don’t understand all of the cartridge dimensions and terminology).

They offered to send me another box if I ship this box to them but I had to cover the shipping cost (~$10).

Just got back from the range, I shot a savage 30-06, shooting my new Nosler Accubond 165 gr and I was experiencing bolt lock with every shot....