No Masks....Would you?

[ImBillT]

This is probably what you are looking for then.

Still Confused About Masks? Here’s the Science Behind How Face Masks Prevent Coronavirus

We talked to UCSF epidemiologist George Rutherford, MD, and infectious disease specialist Peter Chin-Hong, MD, about the CDC’s reversal on mask-wearing, the current science on how masks work, and what to consider when choosing a mask.

www.ucsf.edu

If either person is wearing a mask risk is reduced, if both are it's even further reduced.

So to your original question, it doesn't, it works both ways.

It may be further reduced if the only encounter with the virus is a single exposure of limited duration with foreknowledge of the encounter. What I don’t buy, is the idea that someone can possibly implement an effective protocol for an entire year of interaction with humanity. Reduced risk implies that there is still risk. When you have multiple encounters, every day, for an entire year, eventually you almost certainly catch it, mask or not. If we cut cases dramatically, then we still lack immunity, so instead of needing to be perfect for one year, we need to be perfect for two years, or three, or twenty.

Okay, we have a vaccine now. I’m not sure the numbers are all that encouraging. One vaccine claims that it’s 95% effective at preventing severe illness. Weren’t only about 95% of illnesses sever even before that vaccine? The latest vaccine claims its 76% effective at preventing symptomatic illness. Didnt early data suggest that about 85% of infections were asymptomatic before the vaccine?

I’m not convinced that the masks have been proven have any real utility in preventing viral respiratory illness in the long term, and I am convinced that the older I am when I catch covid-19 the worse off I’ll be.

I’ve already had it anyway. My whole family caught it while I was out of town on a hunt, and I caught it from them shortly after I returned. It’s unclear whether my wife caught it from my mother, who was very careful and works for an eye surgeon, or if she caught it from a coworker where they are both required to wear a mask.

 

[2rocky]

You know, I really wouldn't mind if the restaurant workers who prepared and handled my food were required to wear a mask even post pandemic. Indoor dining has just resumed in CA and once you are in the door other than tables spaced apart at 25% capacity and masked wait staff, it is business as usual to look at the patrons.

 

[ImBillT]

There have been science deniers for as long as there has been science. It is not new. Many people choose to be willfully ignorant.

One of the reasons for “science deniers” is the prevalence of people claiming that science has reached a definitive and provable conclusion on a subject when it most definitely has not.

politicians on both sides have been doing it regularly for my entire life.

 

[DouglasR]

You know, I really wouldn't mind if the restaurant workers who prepared and handled my food were required to wear a mask even post pandemic.

And just like that, a new piece of required PPE was born.
Let’s get the safety man out here writing up some violations!

 

[Fj605]

Without a doubt, I'd go to a restaurant without a mask. I'm actually looking forward to it.

 

[Tiredofthebickering]

All I'm saying is, my wife had it and was symptomatic and everything. I tried my DARNDEST to catch it but couldn't. So I figure I'm some sort of lame, anti-covid superhero.

 

[AvidIndoorsman]

It may be further reduced if the only encounter with the virus is a single exposure of limited duration with foreknowledge of the encounter. What I don’t buy, is the idea that someone can possibly implement an effective protocol for an entire year of interaction with humanity. Reduced risk implies that there is still risk. When you have multiple encounters, every day, for an entire year, eventually you almost certainly catch it, mask or not. If we cut cases dramatically, then we still lack immunity, so instead of needing to be perfect for one year, we need to be perfect for two years, or three, or twenty.

Right I agree, hence social distancing + masks. I think masks reduce exposure and then there is roulette with whomever you encounter.

Also I think you need to distinguish between masks that you and I wear everyday and hospital PPE procedures. There is a big differences between the mask I put on to go to the grocery store and the PPE you put on before you go into a room with a COVID patient.

Okay, we have a vaccine now. I’m not sure the numbers are all that encouraging. One vaccine claims that it’s 95% effective at preventing severe illness. Weren’t only about 95% of illnesses sever even before that vaccine? The latest vaccine claims its 76% effective at preventing symptomatic illness. Didnt early data suggest that about 85% of infections were asymptomatic before the vaccine?

As you noted efficacy is different for each, let's just say 95% for discussion. So 5% of people who get COVID have sever symptoms, and 5% of people who get the vaccine get COVID.

So it compounds...



That being said, the vaccine offers attenuation of your symptoms, so this ^ table does not reflect reality.

30,000 people received the Moderna and Pfizer vaccines, only 1 person in the trial who received the vaccine was hospitalized, no one died.

I’m not convinced that the masks have been proven have any real utility in preventing viral respiratory illness in the long term, and I am convinced that the older I am when I catch covid-19 the worse off I’ll be.

I agree, if rates were high for years even with a mask you would get it eventually. If every interaction was a .05% chance and you had thousands a year... odds are not in your favor.

Masks and social distancing were purely to slow the spread until there was a vaccine and people were vaccinated.

This virus will likely continue to be prevalent in the world forever, I don't think it's reasonable to think we can eliminate it, I think the CDC, etc are just shooting for dramatic reduction.

 

[SFC B]

You keep trying to drag abortion into this issue.

First it is legal.

No state in the union will issue a death certificate after an abortion. No death certificate is issued whenever there is a miscarriage. We will never get miscarriages anywhere close to zero. To end abortions, it is a far bigger intrusion into an individual's control of their own affairs than anything asked of anybody for this pandemic.

As to smoking, society sends many messages that discourage the practice. Most states have banned indoor smoking in public buildings. So it is inaccurate to think the deaths caused by smoking are not an area of concern.

We are talking about concern for human life. While both smoking and abortion are legal (with varying limitations) it is INCREDIBLY hypocritical to espouse "concern" and "caution" for this danger leading to the infringement of personal liberty and massive economic destruction while ALLOWING both of those activities to claim more lives every year with nominative "warnings and notices". The limitation on smoking compared to this farce is minuscule compared to its actual impact.

If the concern is for human life the outcry and action should be focused on actual danger and impact first......this is waaaaay down the list.

 

[2rocky]

And just like that, a new piece of required PPE was born.
Let’s get the safety man out here writing up some violations!

This is the first Fall/Winter that I can remember that I didn't have any viral respiratory sickness that sidelined me. In November/December of 2019 I had one of my most severe respiratory infections ever. No Covid Antibodies wehen I was tested in March of 2020.

I think that the Masking did help in reducing the spread other viruses as well. I wouldn't want them to be every day wear but Food Handlers are a Critical Control Point. Remember when no one wore gloves handling food?

 

[SFC B]

If someone doesn't think a 12% increase is a lot I doubt they will care if it's 40% or 60%... just saying.

If you look at historical data, where was the panic in the 2013-14 timeframe? A comparatively monumental jump. https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/USA/united-states/death-rate

 

[DouglasR]

Remember when no one wore gloves handling food?

This is required?
Gloves on hands don’t inhibit my ability to read my fellow humans facial expressions.

 

[Otto Matic]

1) I seldom eat out. We (the wife and me) prefer our own cooking.
2) I won't eat out just anywhere.
3) I won't wear a face diaper unless I just absolutely have "NO" other choice. (I need a left handed flip doodle and the only flip doodle store in town requires a mask)
4) I AM NOT taking any "flu shot". Best bring a platoon if you plan on sticking that s#¡t in my arm!
5) The "Kung Fu flu" got out of a bio lab in China (speaking of quality assurance!) and you expect to stop it with a paper mask?
6) a virus is a virus is a virus! A virus will run it's course!

"IF" you "insist" on wearing a mask:
1) put it on and leave it on
2) if you remove your mask, it's compromised and no longer effective
3) if you TOUCH your mask to adjust it, it's compromised and no longer effective
4) mask over mouth and not over nose? compromised, no longer effective

Why did our Gov't quarantine perfectly healthy people? It's never happened in history!
Lost my grandson to "Type A" influenza in '07. No mask, social distancing or quarantine required.
Nearly lost my eldest to H1N1 in '09. No mask, social distancing or quarantine required.

 

[rwc101]

We are talking about concern for human life. While both smoking and abortion are legal (with varying limitations) it is INCREDIBLY hypocritical

Make of it what you will, and I'm not going to debate, but not everyone has a worldview where developing fetuses and people who are already here and have participated in the human experience are a 1:1 comparison.

 

[AvidIndoorsman]

If you look at historical data, where was the panic in the 2013-14 timeframe? A comparatively monumental jump. https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/USA/united-states/death-rate

From that site.

What am I missing?
CDC says 9,014,608 deaths in 2013 and 9,129,652 deaths in 2014.

Also, here is the disconnect between our thinking.

Please correct me if I'm misconstruing anything.

This is what you are saying "The number of deaths due to COVID is...

in NO way proportional to the response and economic destruction.

My thinking, Holy smokes we did all that and still 545,000 and counting people died imagine if we had just acted like it was nothing and continued on...

So yes trillions of dollars and changes to our society that will last decades made the deaths seem small when compared to the total population. If we had not done anything the death count would not have been statistically small. (I guess depending on your def of small)

The response was not looking at what did happen it was looking at would would have happened.

 

[DouglasR]

If we had not done anything the death count would not have been statistically small. (I guess depending on your def of small)

Base the facts, Slick Willy.

 

[DouglasR]

View attachment 178427
From that site.

What am I missing?
CDC says 9,014,608 deaths in 2013 and 9,129,652 deaths in 2014.

Also, here is the disconnect between our thinking.

Please correct me if I'm misconstruing anything.

This is what you are saying "The number of deaths due to COVID is...


My thinking, Holy smokes we did all that and still 545,000 and counting people died imagine if we had just acted like it was nothing and continued on...

So yes trillions of dollars and changes to our society that will last decades made the deaths seem small when compared to the total population. If we had not done anything the death count would not have been statistically small. (I guess depending on your def of small)

The response was not looking at what did happen it was looking at would would have happened.

You’re wife’s coming home and complaining about 5 codes and yet you’re getting on an airplane to go find a legal moose that you know ain’t there?

 

[AvidIndoorsman]

You’re wife’s coming home and complaining about 5 codes and yet you’re getting on an airplane to go find a legal moose that you know ain’t there?

100% accurate

 

[LWC55]

My thinking, Holy smokes we did all that and still 545,000 and counting people died imagine if we had just acted like it was nothing and continued on...

So yes trillions of dollars and changes to our society that will last decades made the deaths seem small when compared to the total population. If we had not done anything the death count would not have been statistically small. (I guess depending on your def of small)

The response was not looking at what did happen it was looking at would would have happened.

If strict covid restrictions work, wouldn't the states with the most restrictions have better results than states with less restrictions?
If gun control works, wouldn't states with the most gun restrictions have less gun violence?
I know it isn't apples to apples.
But I haven't seen any definitive studies showing that countries/states with strict mask mandates/lockdowns did markedly better than those that didn't. I believe that respiratory virus' gonna do what virus' gonna do. Short of totally isolating one's self completely, I don't think you can avoid it.

 

[88man]

I would. Its hard to make complete sense of of some of the orders.

 

[AvidIndoorsman]

If strict covid restrictions work, wouldn't the states with the most restrictions have better results than states with less restrictions?
If gun control works, wouldn't states with the most gun restrictions have less gun violence?
I know it isn't apples to apples.
But I haven't seen any definitive studies showing that countries/states with strict mask mandates/lockdowns did markedly better than those that didn't. I believe that respiratory virus' gonna do what virus' gonna do. Short of totally isolating one's self completely, I don't think you can avoid it.

Lots of variables. Patient population, geography, travel habits, etc etc

Restrictions that people are willing to adhere to would probably be the accurate statement. Gun violence is very low and Japan, and gun laws are very strict.

If people "cheat" then the rule/restriction doesn't matter. Every society and culture is different.
China V US would probably be the example.

Bottomline with any issue, you can't do it if you don't have buy in from a decent sized majority.