ND Deer season structure - Are changes needed?

[brocksw]

Over the last decade or so the ND deer seasons and tag allocations have come under a bit of fire. There has been some complaints from hunters about the archery pressure in the Badlands, specifically in the first two weeks of the season (Season Runs from Beginning of Sept to the first weekend in Jan). This is presumably because archery tag numbers have quadrupled in the last decade and a half or so. But there has also been some talk about too much pressure in the Badlands during the 16.5 day rifle season that runs in November.

The NDBHA Facebook group has a done a number of different polls to try and get a feel for acceptance level of change from the public with some surprising results. Granted its a small sample size, the most accepted changes seem to be around rifle season and the idea of splitting that season up. There is some disagreement on how they should be split, but there is far more acceptance around that concept than any changes to archery tags. Keep in mind, that acceptance is about 60/40 in favor of change for rifle season. The support for archery changes was far lower.

The ND Game and Fish is aware of the complaints and concerns and entertains discussions but hasn't really acted on anything at this point, although they came close a few years ago with the 1 buck proposal.

It would be interesting to see a discussion on this subject for Hunttalkers.

 

[Labman]

Drew a 4C tag in 2020 after 13 years of putting in, having the tag back in 2007 I can attest the changes that have occurred are hard to believe. Back in ‘07 there wasn’t too big of a problem turning up a mature buck, even if he was untouchable. I hunted the last 10 days in ‘20 and never turned up a decent buck. The best one I saw was maybe 22” with shallow forks, probably a 3-4 yr old deer. The age class of the bucks in 4C has been decimated. Every doe we saw was being tended by a dink fork, or crab claw 2-3 yr old deer. The human presence is also hard to comprehend. Trucks down every 2-track and established gravel road that exists. You can’t issue unlimited archery tags with a season from early Sept until Dec, and a rifle tag in the prime of the rut and expect to have a quality deer herd. I am sure a tiny handful of decent bucks were shot, but the experience in ‘20 ranks as one of the most unimpressive in my hunting career. The country out there is amazing, and the potential is there but I would caution anyone from burning more than 1 point on what was once the best mule deer tag in ND.

 

[NDGuy]

I tend to agree with the changing the unlimited archery tags. Western ND has exploded within archery seasons. Some people just going for the thrill but some by necessity. Eastern ND is locked up pretty tight for deer, you need private access which isn't necessarily hard but for someone just starting out it's a barrier of entry.

Maybe have a muley archery tag separate from the WT.

Lots of ways you can go about it, I will come back on this tomorrow and maybe expand a bit.

 

[brocksw]

I tend to agree with the changing the unlimited archery tags. Western ND has exploded within archery seasons. Some people just going for the thrill but some by necessity. Eastern ND is locked up pretty tight for deer, you need private access which isn't necessarily hard but for someone just starting out it's a barrier of entry.

Maybe have a muley archery tag separate from the WT.

Lots of ways you can go about it, I will come back on this tomorrow and maybe expand a bit.

Perhaps predictably, moving away from unlimited archery gains very little public support according to the polls on the NDBHA FB group.

Going to a 1 buck tag system doesn't gain much support either but I think if ND sportsmen were forced into picking between limited draw archery tags or a 1 buck tag system, they would pick the 1 buck tag system hands down. Obviously, that's conjecture on my part. I think in terms of fairness to hunters and the resource, as well as having the added benefit of possibly adding some quality to ND deer hunting without completely moving away from the "opportunity model", the 1 buck tag system has some real merit. Perhaps it's just 1 mule deer buck tag, white tail not included?

I agree with the concept of a mule deer vs a whitetail archery tag, but I really wonder how much it would accomplish. In theory the benefit would be to have a few less bow hunters out there in the badlands, especially at certain times of year when its especially congested. This is presuming that a small, but still significant portion of bowhunters would elect to forgo their opening weekend or week long trip to the badlands in favor of the whitetail treestand close to home where they feel they can devote more time and attention. But we're being presumptuous with that guess and have very little data to back it up, that will not win over the hearts and minds of NoDak bowhunters. But, from that action we would gain great insight/data into how many bowhunters prioritize Mule Deer over Whitetail and what success rates look like for each species with a bow. It would add some granularity to NDGFs existing harvest data, which imo is a bit incomplete in this specific area.

Going to a limited draw for archery in the badlands will see significant opposition and outcry from ND hunters. Since the GF has always touted opportunity over quality, I think sportsmen would have to be overwhelmingly in support of a move that direction in order for it to happen. So realistically I think it leaves us with other options to try and address those concerns. Throw on top of that the likelihood that the GF will want the simplest option with the fewest changes (to try and calm the masses who don't handle lots of change all at once very well) and we keep coming back to the one tag system.

 

[brocksw]

In terms of throwing all options on the table (at least ones I can think of), that have a goal of decreasing intensity of pressure and not trying to get every detail hammered out, it looks like this:

- 1 buck tag system
- Hunters pick between whitetail or mule deer bow tag
- Limited draw archery tags (apply for species and unit)
- Splitting bow season into multiple seasons
- Shortening bow season
- Splitting rifle season into multiple seasons
- Move Doe harvests to an October season(before rut)


I might be missing some better ideas and I think some of the above options won't have the desired effect. But I think at least 1 or some combination of them will help.

There's also some interesting info that the NDGF sells a significant number of archery tags after rifle season. I have not confirmed but I've heard as high as 2,000 tags some years. I would assume this is representing those who are unsuccessful during rifle season or have an easy doe they can take off the neighbors or something. I would be very curious about the harvest statistics for those tags.

 

[NDGuy]

In terms of throwing all options on the table (at least ones I can think of), that have a goal of decreasing intensity of pressure and not trying to get every detail hammered out, it looks like this:

- Limited draw archery tags (apply for species and unit)
- Splitting rifle season into multiple seasons

I would maybe be in favor for these.

What would be the harm in making only muley archery tags a limited draw? Keep WT OTC but muley tag permits would be separate and LE.

Keep the entire mule deer experience more enjoyable with less pressure. Also less muley bucks taken by bow making for possible better numbers for the rifle hunt.

 

[dirtytough]

In terms of throwing all options on the table (at least ones I can think of), that have a goal of decreasing intensity of pressure and not trying to get every detail hammered out, it looks like this:

- 1 buck tag system
- Hunters pick between whitetail or mule deer bow tag
- Limited draw archery tags (apply for species and unit)
- Splitting bow season into multiple seasons
- Shortening bow season
- Splitting rifle season into multiple seasons
- Move Doe harvests to an October season(before rut)


I might be missing some better ideas and I think some of the above options won't have the desired effect. But I think at least 1 or some combination of them will help.

There's also some interesting info that the NDGF sells a significant number of archery tags after rifle season. I have not confirmed but I've heard as high as 2,000 tags some years. I would assume this is representing those who are unsuccessful during rifle season or have an easy doe they can take off the neighbors or something. I would be very curious about the harvest statistics for those tags.

I have thought about this a lot. A few changes I think would help. And it would help archers and rifle hunters.

Make archery a draw. Make it a guaranteed tag but you have to apply for it as your first choice. That way archers get to hunt if they want and rifle hunters would get to hunt more often since archers aren't competing for rifle tags.

Maybe this is the 1 buck tag system you are talking about?

Split rifle seasons like Colorado does.

The first couple weeks of archery is a zoo and rifle season is a zoo.
4B had 1450 rifle tags last year.
4C had 1250 rifle tags last year.
4D had 1200 rifle tags last year.

That is a lot of hunters crowded into a unit plus archery hunters at the same time. I've been seeing more and more archers out during rifle season. Myself included.

Those would be my first two changes. Making archery a draw would help with rifle hunters whacking a deer and throwing an archery tag on it while still trying to fill their rifle tag. It would help with crowding and with rifle draw odds.

Splitting rifle seasons might help odds for one season and also help with some of the crowding.

SW ND had a bad die off last year from EHD on the whitetail side. It will be interesting to see if the NDGF is going to cut all whitey doe tags in those units. That would help with crowding in the short term

The main problem is most hunters are not willing to give up anything.

I did talk to an NDGF employee the other day that said with all the archery pressure, deer are getting pushed to private and not coming off until after rifle season. So the archery crowding isn't just a social issue its also a biological issue according to the NDGF.

 

[brocksw]

What would be the harm in making only muley archery tags a limited draw? Keep WT OTC but muley tag permits would be separate and LE.

I don't think it would harm anything if your goal is to manage for a quality experience and a quality animal. The NDGF has stated they manage more for opportunity. If enough people complain the department will respond to try and address those complaints. Too me this is step one. ND hunters need to figure out what they want out of mule deer. Do they want quality deer/quality opportunity or do they want to draw tags as often as possible and maintain some opportunity to archery hunt.

Keep the entire mule deer experience more enjoyable with less pressure. Also less muley bucks taken by bow making for possible better numbers for the rifle hunt.

Is the goal better deer numbers for rifle hunters? How will that decrease pressure during rifle season? How many mule deer are harvested with a bow before rifle season begins? ND bowhunters have taken around 1000 mule deer per year for the last couple years, that's the entire harvest for the season, bucks and does across the state, not just in the Badlands units. I know of a fair number of mule deer taken by sakakawea, mandan, the glen ullin and richardton area, all on private land and all outside of the 4X units in the badlands. So going to a limited draw for archery, might not do much to help rifle hunters, at least not unless you knock the archery tags down in the badlands to rifle tag numbers in terms of tags available, somewhere around 300-350 buck tags per unit on average.

Harvest success for rifle hunters has been like 78-80% for mule deer bucks. Apply that against 2150 tags (2020 Mule buck tags available in the 4X units) and that's 1,677 mule deer bucks taken by rifle in 16.5 days. Throw in another 1500 mule deer doe tags and that's another 1,185 does taken in that same 16.5 days. Throw in another 1,750 whitetail tags in those same units at a 64% success rate and that's another 1,120 deer being killed over that same 16.5 days. 1800 more whitetail doe tags = 1,152 more deer getting killed in that same 16.5 days.

In 16.5 days we have somewhere around 7,200 hunters (not counting any that hold two tags) running around the badlands killing just over 5,000 deer.

Archery statistics paint a different picture. Around 1000 mule deer killed over the entire season at 40% success rate (that success rate includes all archery tags). So with that number that's 2467.5 bowhunters after mule deer for the entire season, presumable most are hunting in September, October, November. We don't have much for statistics available that tell us how many bowhunters are after whitetail in the badlands.

I feel like, with the above numbers, we can limit archery as much as we want and gain a very minimal improvement to the rifle hunters experience. If we want quality deer, than the rifle hunt is what needs to be limited.

2019 Deer Season Summarized | North Dakota Game and Fish

A total of 57,949 North Dakota deer hunters took approximately 37,250 deer during the 2019 deer gun hunting season, according to a post-season survey conducted by the state Game and Fish Department.

gf.nd.gov

 

[brocksw]

Make archery a draw. Make it a guaranteed tag but you have to apply for it as your first choice. That way archers get to hunt if they want and rifle hunters would get to hunt more often since archers aren't competing for rifle tags.

Maybe this is the 1 buck tag system you are talking about?

I'm a proponent of this personally. By that I mean I'm a proponent of having a draw where every archer still gets a tag, but they have to pick between whitetail or mule deer, they have to apply at an arbitrary date before the season starts, and they are only allowed to kill one buck no matter how many tags they hold. So if they draw a rifle tag for 4C and shoot a buck in September with their bow, they don't get to rifle hunt in 4C in November because they've already notched their tag.

Its a combination of the first two options I listed above.

Split rifle seasons like Colorado does.

The first couple weeks of archery is a zoo and rifle season is a zoo.
4B had 1450 rifle tags last year.
4C had 1250 rifle tags last year.
4D had 1200 rifle tags last year.

That is a lot of hunters crowded into a unit plus archery hunters at the same time. I've been seeing more and more archers out during rifle season. Myself included.

I'm also in support of splitting seasons. NDBHA's FB polls show this to be the more acceptable changes discussed. I think it looks like a 9 day season at the end of October and a 9 day season in the middle of November. I'd take it a step further and say all does should be harvested in the October season, before they are bred, or even perhaps a 3rd doe only season in the beginning of October. We'd need a biologist to elaborate on this.

The November season will become the most coveted, without a doubt. Success rates will probably be lower in the October season. But I think the hope is that you can draw that tag more often, so people might not feel the need to shoot a forky on the last day. But, I'm probably wrong on that.

I ran some analysis and learned something kind of interesting. I compared units 4C with unit 2G in terms of county road miles within the units. I chose these 2 units because they are very close to each other in total surface acreage (4C =510k acres, 2G = 523k acres). I learned that in terms of county roads, 2G has over double the amount of county road miles compared to 4C (4C = 591 miles, 2G = 1,351 miles), yet 4C has around 300 more deer tags in that unit. I haven't run the analysis for 4A or 4B or the other badlands units but I would assume based on the road data that we would see this common trend when making similar comparisons for the other badlands units as well.

I found this to be significant information in trying to get to the bottom of our problem and address concerns with a solution if there is one. There's a tremendous amount of traffic shoved into 2 short windows of time on less overall access points/roads than the eastern whitetail units.

To me, there's only two ways to address that problem of intense pressure for rifle season....cut tags or slit seasons.

 

[brocksw]

I did talk to an NDGF employee the other day that said with all the archery pressure, deer are getting pushed to private and not coming off until after rifle season. So the archery crowding isn't just a social issue its also a biological issue according to the NDGF.

Archery pressure has quadrupled in the state overall in the last decade or more. But we have no data that tells us how many archery hunters are out there over opening week vs October vs November etc... Again given the numbers I posted above, it looks to be that rifle season pressure is far greater than any time period in archery season. With the only possible exception being opening week of archery...but...and that's a big BUT...are there 7,000 bowhunters out there for the first 16.5 days like there is in rifle season?

 

[Labman]

In terms of throwing all options on the table (at least ones I can think of), that have a goal of decreasing intensity of pressure and not trying to get every detail hammered out, it looks like this:

- 1 buck tag system
- Hunters pick between whitetail or mule deer bow tag
- Limited draw archery tags (apply for species and unit)
- Splitting bow season into multiple seasons
- Shortening bow season
- Splitting rifle season into multiple seasons
- Move Doe harvests to an October season(before rut)


I might be missing some better ideas and I think some of the above options won't have the desired effect. But I think at least 1 or some combination of them will help.

There's also some interesting info that the NDGF sells a significant number of archery tags after rifle season. I have not confirmed but I've heard as high as 2,000 tags some years. I would assume this is representing those who are unsuccessful during rifle season or have an easy doe they can take off the neighbors or something. I would be very curious about the harvest statistics for those tags.

All of those suggestions.

 

[NDGuy]

I feel like, with the above numbers, we can limit archery as much as we want and gain a very minimal improvement to the rifle hunters experience. If we want quality deer, than the rifle hunt is what needs to be limited.

2019 Deer Season Summarized | North Dakota Game and Fish

A total of 57,949 North Dakota deer hunters took approximately 37,250 deer during the 2019 deer gun hunting season, according to a post-season survey conducted by the state Game and Fish Department.

gf.nd.gov

People that wait 6-9 years to draw a muley tag should take precedent IMO. I value it as a trophy tag as do most others.

Mule deer get harassed from September to November by bow hunters. I would be fine with a lot of the ideas you posted above.

With the booming popularity, giving unlimited access to bowhunt out there seems odd to me since it is a scarce & coveted resource for our state. Bowhunters taking 990 mule deer in 2019 when they only gave out 1700 4B/C/D/E rifle tags seems like a lot no? I get that is statewide, so would have to see the breakdown of which units they were taken. I am probably in the minority but I would personally just like less pressure during archery for mostly selfish reasons.

 

[brocksw]

People that wait 6-9 years to draw a muley tag should take precedent IMO. I value it as a trophy tag as do most others.

Mule deer get harassed from September to November by bow hunters. I would be fine with a lot of the ideas you posted above.

With the booming popularity, giving unlimited access to bowhunt out there seems odd to me since it is a scarce & coveted resource for our state. Bowhunters taking 990 mule deer in 2019 when they only gave out 1700 4B/C/D/E rifle tags seems like a lot no? I get that is statewide, so would have to see the breakdown of which units they were taken. I am probably in the minority but I would personally just like less pressure during archery for mostly selfish reasons.

My opinion differs a little in that regard.

In terms of a trophy hunt, if they want to manage it like a trophy tag then the badlands hunt would have even longer draw times. Think 10-15 years for a rifle tag instead. Once every few years you could draw an archery tag. Look at MT special permit hunts, many of the Wyoming hunts, Colorado...we have way less habitat that's way easier to get to and way less mule deer. I don't see any combination of any solutions having the same effect as dramatically reducing tags in all seasons and with all weapons.

As someone who spends a significant amount of time in the Badlands every fall, I don't think the archery harassment is that bad outside of the first two, maybe 3 weeks of archery season. That's what makes the archery problem a challenge. We don't know exactly how many people are out there at any specific time, namely the busiest times. We don't know how many people hunt mule deer opening weekend and then head back east and hunt whitetail in a treestand for the rest of the fall and then go down as purely a whitetail statistic.

I usually don't hunt September, unless I have eyes on a particular buck I'm trying to shoot or we get a cold front. As soon as I get back from elk hunting in Sept I'm out in the badlands and generally don't see other people out there until rifle season, then in my opinion it's worse than archery season. I think the numbers prove that, but I could be wrong.

I agree that unlimited access for a coveted resource is unique and other states management paths tell us that won't last forever. I'd like to think there are alternatives to use before we go to a limited archery draw, but maybe I'm being naive. Another problem with the archery pressure is that since there's no units, pressure isn't controlled in anyway in terms of geographic location. You might show up south of the interstate on opener and there's a ton of people in one area. Drive a few miles noth of the interestate and there's no one. I've heard very diverse responses to the archery pressure that seem to confirm this, as anecdotal as that might be.

 

[NDGuy]

I agree that unlimited access for a coveted resource is unique and other states management paths tell us that won't last forever. I'd like to think there are alternatives to use before we go to a limited archery draw, but maybe I'm being naive. Another problem with the archery pressure is that since there's no units, pressure isn't controlled in anyway in terms of geographic location. You might show up south of the interstate on opener and there's a ton of people in one area. Drive a few miles noth of the interestate and there's no one. I've heard very diverse responses to the archery pressure that seem to confirm this, as anecdotal as that might be.

Yes I can definitely agree hear sir. There is no controlled pressure. That's why I would entertain the idea of a muley only tag or having to apply for a particular area of the badlands with a bow. At least you can somewhat control the pressure.

I just think it's worth a discussion to maybe find a different balance of opportunity, quality, and pressure.

 

[brocksw]

I just think it's worth a discussion to maybe find a different balance of opportunity, quality, and pressure.

Couldn't agree more. We as sportsmen should never shy away from that conversation, especially when the situation is forcing it to our doorstep.

 

[Labman]

You guys with a dog in the fight have your work cut out for you. I can only sit on the sidelines now and wish you the best since I will never go back except to hunt rooties. Next on your agenda of items to fight for should be the allocation elk tags for the peasants vs landowner. The way those are distributed leads me to believe the system is totally corrupt.
I hope your changes get some attention, they are truly needed.

 

[antlerradar]

If you are getting some resistance, just do a little field trip to the west to see first hand what you have to look forward too with all opportunity all the time management.

 

[brocksw]

You guys with a dog in the fight have your work cut out for you. I can only sit on the sidelines now and wish you the best since I will never go back except to hunt rooties. Next on your agenda of items to fight for should be the allocation elk tags for the peasants vs landowner. The way those are distributed leads me to believe the system is totally corrupt.
I hope your changes get some attention, they are truly needed.

ND Proclamation states tags are not transferable and the century code says no person may use the license of another.....

So we have that going for us.

 

[NDGuy]

ND Proclamation states tags are not transferable and the century code says no person may use the license of another.....

So we have that going for us.

I am sure nobody ever breaks that rule....

lol

 

[brocksw]

I am sure nobody ever breaks that rule....

lol

I'm sure it happens, but at least with something written in statute it prevents things like straight up sale of LO tags and marketing said landowner tag in a free for all. Also, the tag will still have the landowners name on it so even if he sells it to a buddy under the table, they both run the risk of being caught red handed should a game warden check and the LO isn't there.

Can't prevent everything or spin in circles forever trying. People will break laws...it is what it is.

I do think the law could be written stronger. Proclamation is signed every year and the Century Code just says you can't use someone elses tag. Not much preventing the next director or governor from eliminating that language from the proclamation and allowing transferrable tags.