MT's I-143 under attack

[Washington Hunter]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>The same could be said about ANY domesticated animal. They all started out wild and there are still members of the species / family / genus which are wild.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No Marland, I don't think so. So just because all domesticated animals started out wild you think we should do the same to elk? Why? What's the reasoning behind that? Eventually then you would like to see domestic elk to be just as common as domestic cattle? Then what would be the thrill of packing into the mountains on horses and mules and hunting them? When everybody can just go down to safeway and buy a package of elk steaks don't you think the value of those canned elk "hunts" would drop a little? There would probably no longer be canned hunts for elk, they would just slaughter them like cattle. What a great country this would be to live in then huh? Is that what you want for your children?

 

[MarlandS]

All I said was the same could be said..yada yada where it goes from there is up to the readers conscience.

But in response to your post, Where did I say we should do the same to Elk? By the same token I don't see it as either tame or wild elk either. They don't have to be mutually exclusive concepts. But, obviously the way the majority of gamefarms ran themselves was wrong or all the concerns wouldn't be there.

I can see by your logic that anyone who doesn't either draw a tag or happens to score should be deprived of some fantastic meat until they draw or score.

You make it sound like the only reason to hunt Elk is for the meat, I thought we hunters always said it was about the hunt. I've got news for you , I have more faith in our hunting population than to believe that if Elk meat was available in stores that most would opt for buying meat over hunting them. Tags wuld still sell out every year, with people who couldn't draw picking up some meat at the local grocery and planning next years draw/hunt.

on to others here (don't want WH to have all the fun)
Oh and I really get a kick out of the PEOPLE voted them out, if it was something that went against y 'alls beliefs you'd be whining about the granola crunchers living in the cities that ruined your hunting. Don't believe me? I can go to the archives and show it.

Also print this out and print out one of the grazing threads lay them side by side and look at the hypocrisy

 

[Moosie]

Buzz... <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> there are people who dont see anything wrong with wounding 2-3 animals for ever one they kill. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Have you ever shot and Wounded an Animal and not recovered it ?

(then I'll have a follow up question later)

Hey Washington Hunter, I'm Totally with Danr.. How can you be against ELK/Deer in the pen but not a Corsican Ram ? Or a Hawiaan Ram ? Also, I'm Not a FAT ASS or rich by any means.... So you are REALLY throwing out a sterio type. Your arguments sound More like You're mad becuase Some Lazy Fat ass has Money to burn... I can't blame you on being Mad at them, Every office has them, But, We should let them spend there Money if they want to.

That being said, It's like Saying becasue Someone Can't type well or Spel well Or never Finished the 10th grade and MArried To young (Thats all me By the Way) can't make it in our world. I'll post pictures Of my house and Photocopy my last PAystub to back that up.. total BS !! It's a generalization of the "MAJORITY" that are mad becasue Some dumb kid (ME) never got good grade, Ditched Class, told teachers to Fugg off.... And now is living fairly well....

Now...280.. You've become LESS witted as the years go on.. I can Tuely tell you're out of practice, Please Sharpen those skills and Try Again.

Greeny, I don't know Shit about the First Ballot, Nor this second one. I won't claim to know Why ones right or wrong becasue I haven't seen it, All I know is The Whining on these boards about Fat lazy rich hunters. I 100% agree with ya that MT probably has Enough Elk hunting that they shouldn't have a penned hunt. But, So what ? Texas has enough "FREE RANGING FERAL GOATS"

That is why I started by saying I'm on the line, I do see bad things with it, But see good things too. I figure if both sides were to work together and Not fight then we could have a compramise. I know you're not jealouse of rich people shooting Elk, But it's more of your $'s helping to fund the project, But, If you read 90% of the boards and People responses, Its' "THEM FAT RICH PEOPLE". That sounds Very much like a Jealousy thing... Whether it is or not, It's a Dumb reason.

Thats like Telling me becasue I spend $500 on Troy's Artwork of an Elk I'm a FAT RICH LAZY PAINTER becasue I didn't take the time and Do it myself. Thats a buncha Crap. MAybe painting isn't what I do.. MAybe I can't hunt as well as Buzz or Greeny .. Maybe I want to go to a pen and Shoot one. MAybe I want to hire an Outfitter to help find and Shoot me one.. Both ways are types of hunting and If I was unfortunate to be FAT/LAZY or jsut Skinny and Unlucky... And I wanted a Painting.. Errr I mean an Elk, Then I should have the Right to buy one...

Buzz, I'll ask again, What makes and Elk different then a Cow (MOO COW) Is it because We've Desimated the Moo Cow herds and Penned then all up and now it's the norm to see them in the pen ? I know thats a "SILLY" example, But goats ? chickens ? Who cares ? Whats the difference petween sooting a Phesant on a Game ranch that provides Food and they plant them there instead on a Wide one ? Kinda the same, Yet, Still a CANNED hunt in a way, Sure they can fly off but Won't usually these game bird farms are surounded by Sage.... So Birds always stay. like in a cage.

On the Bait baiting deal, Why is it "ETHICAL" in ID and not in MT ? I would think "ETHICS" is a hard set line... OR, are you saying it depends on the location ? If it's the latter... then I nedd not say more...

Why is Shooting a Elk in a pen different then Shooting it in a canyon ? Thats as dumb as some people saying using a rifle isn't as Ethical as shooting one with a bow. Dumb logic... MY bad,,, ... "DIFFERENT" logic

Just like Ethics to some are different then others.. To me it's MORE ethical to Bait and Use hounds then spot and Stalk. Less females with cubs get shot.. And the #'s prove it...

The reason why Hunting on a Game farm is "UNETHICAL" is the reason I stated above. SO MANY peopel are mad at going out every year and Not shootinga nice elk and See some Dumb ass Fat guy in a picture with a 400 class bull. They get mad. SAY it's Shitty, and then Tell Everyone it is... Kind of a MArketing tool. Whats Excepted by the Majority is then considered "RIGHT". there is a big difference. Game farms are Easier to very easy and Expensive. So the 98% of the people that don't have $$ Baulk. I agree with you on that.

 

[BuzzH]

Moosie, the difference between cattle and elk?

Does that really require an explanation? Ones livestock the other is a big-game animal, for starters.

Have I wounded a big-game animal and not recovered it? Yes I have. I've lost one deer, one elk.

The deer was shot on a b-tag in the river bottom near Missoula. I arrowed a nice buck and it tried crossing the Clark Fork and didnt make it to the other side. It disappeared in a large log jam in a deep hole and I couldnt recover it. I dont own scuba gear.

The elk I hit with my bow, I'm sure I got one lung, but didnt get both, (didnt penetrate enough). It was my fault, shot too far forward.

In both cases I punched a tag for the animals, because I'm 100 percent sure they both died. I killed mine for the year. In fact I bet my elk tag is still in a rock crevace where I left it 8 years ago, I should go back and look for it someday.

I also didnt bowhunt for 7 years and I just started again this last year...it sucked to lose an animal, and still bugs me to this day.

Most people would have just kept hunting and pretended it didnt happen....

Why is it ethical to bait in ID and not MT? Because sportsmen in MT though it wasnt ethical or had the potential to impact the bear population. Thats all, just a question of ethics.

I got a couple question for you.

Why do you think its against the law to spotlight big-game?

Why do you think its against the law to bait ducks and geese?

Do you think we should just bash our game over the head with hammers while their tied up?

Why not run antelope across the prairie on an atv until they keel over from exhaustion, get your knife out and cut its throat. Whats the difference?

I could easily argue that none of those methods are unethical. I mean what the hell, if I want to shoot my deer or elk out of a light, I should be able to, I'll tag it legally, I'll only take my limit. I'll only kill it during a legal season. Whats the difference between that and killing one in a pen? Whats the difference between that and having to hike your ass off to kill one in a lodgepole jungle? Its all the same, right?

Same with shooting ducks and geese over bait, I wont take more than my limit, I'll only hunt during shooting hours, have the proper permits, so whats the big deal?

The difference is ethics...and that makes a whole bunch of difference, in my opinion.

But there are lots and lots of people who just seem fine with everything, I aint one of those and dont lump me in with them either...just like I dont want to be lumped in with or defend people who shoot elk in pens. I dont think its ethical or proper.

 

[Moosie]

OK, Now Honestly say how many people would have punched the tag ? I'd say MAYBE....1%. Kudos to you, I for one wouldn't have. You are the only one That I would believe actually has done this.

I'm not sure if you really wanted me to answer any of your questions but I will

1.Why do you think its against the law to spotlight big-game?

My take is Safety. Shooting a gun into the night isn't safe. In Texas it's legal. Here the only way to get something would be road hunting and Shooting next to the road isn't safe either... I think If someone wanted to shoot an Elk on their land over a light and it was Safe, I would have "0" issues with it if they bought a tag and used it.

2. do you think its against the law to bait ducks and geese?

I honsestly think thats a RIOT !!! Looks at were people hunt Geese, In Cut, Corn fields. Whats the difference.

3.Do you think we should just bash our game over the head with hammers while their tied up?

HEll, If someone Owns a Chicken And Wants to Screw it then wring it's neck, Who cares ? Is it right in My book, NO, But like you, It's only what I think is Ethical, And maybe I'm wrong... MAybe you are too.. there should be laws in PUBLIC lands and some Strick ones.. Becasue no matter how "ETHICAL" something is, someone is always pushing the limits...

4. Why not run antelope across the prairie on an atv until they keel over from exhaustion, get your knife out and cut its throat. Whats the difference?

Buzz, that would tear up habitat and then the Elk wouldn't have a grazing land

...This is getting silly, Yet fun

BUZZ, when are we hooking up for a hunt, So I can share some of my Ethics with you over a dead critter

 

[Moosie]

SO, HAving seen Ithica today At lunch He brought up this Topic.. I spent about 1/2 hour reading it all... WOW !!!

I know I'm not one to Change minds, And No-one here is goiNg to change Anyones Minds... But, I figure I'll throw in my .02 and leave. MAYBE if I get done with the Adult section I'll have more time for Posting here

Alright, I, for one am on the line here. this is MY thoughts. The only thing I see wrong with game ranches in Montana s that people's $'s went to them that shouldn't have. that seems to be the case here ? Right ? Greeny said it, Buzz said it... OK, So, what if the Ranchers funded all the Testing ? then would it be OK ? Not saying that the hunters hunting there weren't MANSPEW eaters... But tht's not my Business....I see nothing whong with someone that wants to shoot a Elk in a cage.. Nothing different then Sitting in a deerstand waiting for a Deer to walk by ? No worse then using hounds to chase them either.. All leagal in many states. texans like to use feeders, So what ? It's legal there, I don't bash them.

I probably wouldn't shoot a deer or Elk on a ranch, but I'm definately not against it. Hell if BbarC called me up and Said he has a bull he needs Culling from his herd with a BIg rack I'd go shoot it and Keep the horns... Does that mean I'm not a hunter ? Hell, MAybe it does, but why would "MR ALMIGHTY (thats you greeny

) take me, Mr. NON HUNTER / Unethical Basterd, Spermearer out hunting ? I could care less If someone drops the hammer on a 400 Class bull and Drops 12.5k for it. Fine, HELL, MAke up a story to compinsate for your Small jimmy and your Wife Banging the Poolboy. Doesn't bother me, And, I don't think It casuees a Bad name to "HUNTING".

I've been on a goat/hog hunt In Cali once and 2 hunts in Texas. Shot my fair share of what My Buddy Greeny calls "FARM GAME".

I still don't see why hunting in a ranch is Wrong ? I have to agreee that most ranch hunters brag WAY WAY to much about how hard the hunt is, but not all are cake walks.You say that ALL ranches should be banned. Why not soot a Goat on one if you want one ? Were else Am I gonig to get a Corsican Ram If I want one.. Some might Wonder why I do, but that's not your Busnes, Just like I don't understand obsession with Whitetail deer ? It's not for you to judge me on what I want or why. It's also not for you to judge me on how ETHICAL it is... Ethics is A fuggin JOKE !!! How ethical is it to Shoot an Elk with a bow and Have to Chase it down and Stick it again ? Or hell.. Shooting it with a gun ? that being said, I love hunting and Would do it every day. And thats my point. I don't think It's not ethical to do that, jsut like Ranch hunting.

I also Have to Agree that alot of the Ranch hunters are Overpaid, Over WEIGHT, Pricks.. But, not all. Hell, I like shooting a goat in the Offseason on them. I'd go Toe to toe hikeing with most "REAL" hunters. I'm not a greenhorn in hikeing.... But worthy to go with him.

I personally don't think that Game hunting, should be banned if not paid for by the public not using it... Although, I pay tax's for men getting Wefare that beat there wifes. Even though I don't and Don't agree with it. Is there someway I can get some of that money back ?

SO, What have I learned from this post, not a whole lot. But, It was Fun to read, More like a waste of time, But fun non-the-less... I like how nobody budges.. And I like all the "QUOTES" and replys

I'll BE waiting for the "QUOTES" from my post !!!!

And, I'll say it loud "MY NAME IS OSCAR AND I'VE HUNTED GAME RANCHES, AND I WILL DO SO IN THE FUTURE AGAIN" !!!

LONG LIVE HUNTING !!!!! no matter how it's done....(And don't bring up Poaching Buzz...., That's not what I meant and you know it...)

 

[Moosie]

HEHE I'll be the First to make some Quotes...

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> I see nothing whong with someone that wants to shoot a Elk in a cage <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Why not soot a Goat on one if you want one ? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

 

[Moosie]

OK.. 3 back to back posts.... But I have to Ask BUZZ A question...

Somewere (YOOPS BOARD) I read this line...
Someone (BUZZ) wrote it yesterday...
Somehow (Cut'paste) it got over here...

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I think its great you hunt, just like anyone else who hunts, but dont try to compare your style with mine...two entirely different topics.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Isn't hunting a PEN just a "STYLE" ? Like SPOT/STALK , Treestand hunting, 4-wheelers, HOUND HUNTING, road hunting, Bear Baiting, FLY FISHING.... Ohh the list goes on...

The corect Answer to my post is "YES". Whether you think Its wrong or not. THAT, Is ...... two entirely different topics.

 

[Michaelr]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I honsestly think thats a RIOT !!! Looks at were people hunt Geese, In Cut, Corn fields. Whats the difference.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I shouldn't even have to anwser this if you have done much waterfowling.

Sure ducks and geese use cut corn fields, but which one?? do you spend days finding where they are feeding? then spend time finding the owner of that property and then begging permission to hunt. and then find out that they have changed their pattern?
or for that matter which end of a huge field are they using, should I set up my dekes here or there?
Man It would be to easy to just go dump a few sacks of grain in a couple prime spots, it would make using decoys a waste of time, wouldn't even need to learn to call.

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 02-07-2003 12:47: Message edited by: michaelr ]</font>

 

[BuzzH]

Moosie, I rest my case...every issue discussed really boils down to ethics, and thats all game regulations are, a set of ethics.

Some people stop right at the point of not breaking laws, anything but breaking the law is being ethical. Some take them a little further...count me into the crowd that takes ethics beyond just whats legal. If I dont feel the wildlife I hunt has a chance and it isnt sporting TO ME, then I wont be hunting that way.

Because of that, I aint into game farms, I aint into shooting pheasants raised in pens, and I sure as hell dont like to see elk penned and shot.

Hell, even Tom the game farm expert, said Texas passed certain laws to disallow canned hunts...funny how he has no trouble with that yet busts my balls for feeling the same way about his game farm hunts.

 

[Moosie]

Glad you rested your Case BUZZ....

Mike... I don't get your point ? Are you saying dumping grain in a field changes a patteren more then A cut corn field. Getting permission/lease is still an Issue.

Out here if You own the Lease by Lucky peak, you don't even need decoys or camo for that matter.. them geese fly right in.

Whats your take on ROBO duck ? Ethical or not Mike ? How about calling ? Bugleing, using live bait for fishing, Using dead bait for fishing.... Yes the list does go on...

All Hunting in a Ranch does is IUncrease your odds, Just like Hunting a Good Canyon or using roboduck. Ethiucally, We should all be in the Field with Stickbows that we've made ourselfves and Not Gortex, waterproof, GPS, ulralight, Crap... That, then would be FAIR and Ethical !!! Take all that away And I'll back you up on Game ranches.....

That being said, I'm glad I'm not ethical

 

[Tom]

Buzz, I asked you before to not speak for me. Its not polite or accurate to say what I have or don't have a problem with. Speak for yourself, not me. I think you are probably the most unlikely person here, with Washington Hunter close behind, to be able to state what I believe. You're totally blinded to understanding what I believe is what it seems like to me. Every time you try to speak for me it comes out as something I don't agree with, would not say, and do don't believe to be true.

The canned hunts were defined in the law here to appease the anti-hunters. The only concern of hunters here was to shut the anti-hunters up with that law. Some guy illegally shot a released cat and they needed to get that released and shot cat out of the news. Then the legislature fixed it, with a definition of canned hunts and made them illegal too. Basically its no release and shooting of dangerous animals and there's a specific list of animals to limit the effect of the law. Basically, that is what it was about. It was to appease the anti-s. Hunter's that I talked to at least had no problem with a guy shooting and killing a cat, if he legally owned the cat, and if that's what he wanted to do. Nobody I talked to wanted to do that, i.e. release and shoot a cat, but they didn't want it to be illegal either. They did want to shut the anti-s complaining about it up though. That is different than not having a problem with it, its more like taking the bad tasting medicine to get rid of the disease.

It doesn't take away from some other cat hunt that was a good hunt, ethical, legal, and a big cat. We have lots of benefits for wild animals down here and for hunting down here with the laws passed and used regarding high fences and wild animals. Only the anti-s would even use the term, game farm, down here. The people I hear talk about it call them a high fence ranch or wildlife ranch, sometimes they say game-proof fence. Never have I heard "game farm" except by an anti to try and say its like farming game, its not done that way here. They are treated like wildlife here on those places where there are some good hunts.

Moosie, do you think it was easy to get the blackbuck that you didn't get? Even the 3 legged one got away, we saw him once, then that was it. I don't think all high fence ranch hunts are easy. Did you see any aoudads on the economical ram hunt down here? They are there, was it easy to get one, any one, let alone a big one?

It might be easy to get something, that's part of the goal, but it wasn't easy to even see an aoudad there, let alone get one. That's part of the goal too. People can get some ram there, that is relatively easy, then hunt all they want for as many aoudads as they want, that's not easy. There's a good hunt, its not all an easy hunt. People have to option to make out of it what they want, can go anytime of the year, its not too expensive, they have the opportunity to hunt. That is what makes a good high fence hunt to me.

It beats just having the opportunity to send money in and apply for a tag. If you get a tag, great, if you don't, try this. If you get a tag and don't get an animal, you can still try this and get something. You can even fill your tag and still do one of those high fence hunts here, they are year round, with lots of species to choose from, and lots of styles to hunt on them! Safari style, blinds, spot and stalk, bow, pistol, rifle, muzzleloader, all are year round. That's great stuff, there's ethical codes above and beyond the laws for doing it too. We all have our ethics, its just some support the anti-s views and some don't.

 

[Washington Hunter]

Marland you said it is ok to domesticate elk because all domestic animals started out wild. I said, why is it right to domesticate elk just because we did it to all the other domesticated animals? Can we leave just one species wild? What would it hurt? If people want meat and they don't hunt or are not successful on an elk hunt, they can go to the store and buy beef. What is wrong with that? Why the need to conquer all wild animals? We already took up much of the prime elk habitat with our houses, and in most states wiped them out completely. Hunters don't want to see domestic elk in every pasture in every state. Hunters want them to remain wild. Don't you think an elk is more of a trophy if you absolutely had to go work you butt off in the mountains for a week in the cold and the snow to finally kill one? Instead of buying a "trophy bull" for $12,000? I think the basic problem here is most people don't like to see wildlife being bought and sold. That just is not right and if you can't understand that then I guess you are a hopeless case. Maybe you would feel differently if you lived in a state that had populations of wild elk.

 

[Michaelr]

The deal is moosie, Where do you draw the line?

Hell yes baiting changes a pattern, You know exactly where the geese are going to land, and that they WILL come back, You throw a doz deekes out and it becomes a shoot, nothing more. alot of times I have located where geese are using a field, Hunt down the owner, gain access, go the next morning only to find that that bunch of geese has decided to migrate, sit there all day and nothing.
Places like you describe "lucky peak" are are not the norm. most places you will work your butt off to get into the geese.

Robo duck?? I don't know a thing about them.
I pretty much hunt geese, ducks are toooo easy, and the taste like chit!!!

 

[BuzzH]

Tom, enough trying to justify your Texas hunting. I dont really care, and if it makes you happy, great, I'm happy that your happy.

But you wont ever convince me they're anything more than a game farm. They farm livestock, not wildlife.

Hunting in Texas, taking the wild out of wildlife.

Michael, holy crap, I agree with you!

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 02-07-2003 22:25: Message edited by: BuzzH ]</font>

 

[ELKCHSR]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Moosie, I rest my case...every issue discussed really boils down to ethics, and thats all game regulations are, a set of ethics.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
The only problem I see with this, is that the general public is starting to get into voting for some of our hunting rights and privileges that they really don't have any idea about, except what the news media might tell them and what they learned on the Disney channel while growing up. They are starting to set the ethics and it is being taken out of our hands.
I accidentally wounded a cow with my bow two years ago and spent 3 solid day's from light to dark on my hands and knees following the tracks… I finally lost them in a small herd, I don't know if she eventually died or not, I wouldn't go so far to let a tag go, but I will take the time and energy to follow a wounded animal as far as I am able...
About game farms, if it comes back to a vote, I will vote for them, I believe it is a needed resource for this state to help generate revenue. I suppose if one doesn't like to go by and see the animals in a pen, then one doesn't need to drive by and look. I don't but I still think game farms, are a good thing, whether one likes them or not…

 

[Michaelr]

Buzz,
Don't tell ithaca this.

Alot of the time I agree with you guys

But damn it is fun to rile you up

especially ithaca

 

[BuzzH]

Elkchsr, like Greenhorn said, if those elk farms had to pay the admin. costs themselves, they'd be bankrupt in short order, and thats a fact.

Not a single one has been able to stand on their own, its only through heavy subsidy of license dollars that they've survived. Couple that with the CWD scare, and the fact most states have quarantined any importation of elk and deer, the price for them and the products (antlers, etc.) has tanked...its a dying industry. MT's economy would be better off without them.

By the way, you wont get a chance to vote on it again, your elected officials are currently doing it for you...tomorrow the house votes on HB379, an end run around 143.

The Montana Bowhunters Association and the other Sportsmans groups that supported 143 are currently grilling their state reps to squash 379, its going to be close.

 

[MarlandS]

" Marland you said it is ok to domesticate elk because all domestic animals started out wild."

SHOW me where I said that. You can't do it because I didn't.

I never mentioned trophies either, I spoke of MEAT.

Kinda invalidates the rest of your diatribe including calling me hopeless because your entire arguement with what I said is in no way related to what I acually did say.

BTW, we would have had huntable populations of elk by now stocked from our GAMEFARMS except the anti's and insurance companies blocked it 5 or more years ago.

 

[Oak]

Are you talking about releasing farm elk into the wild? Bad idea. Don't go THERE.

Oak