MT Trespass Laws Seriously Altered Today

[Ben Lamb]

Since so many are going to be at the Rally for Public Lands on that day, maybe some could show up at this hearing in person.

Unfortunately, my flu precludes me from going to the rally...

No hearing, unfortunately, but there is a floor vote. If folks want to grab house members and ask them politely to reject the committee amendments to HB 231, that would be awesome. We've let the minority committee vice-chair know of our opposition and will be sending a letter to the whole floor on Monday morning.

 

[MTTINMAN59]

I understand the need to respect landowner boundrys, but if I have to allow 150` safe zone and allow 150 ' for landowners to fence public ground that is a loss of too much prime public ground. Better idea! Allow us a 150` easement like they are allowed

 

[Gerald Martin]

CHarles,

1.) The current law works well in letting both recreationists nd landowners know where boundaries are.

2.) Changing the law this significantly with no public input is not a good way of doing business.

3.) Sportsmen and Landowners crafted the current statute 30 years ago, and it was worked well.

4.) This change in statute would be confusing for sportsmen and landowners alike, and lead to worse relations between the two parties.

5.) Clearly marked boundaries help hunters who do not have GPS or rely on maps. Just like "good fences make for good neighbors," highly identifiable boundaries help sportsmen stay off of private property where they are not wanted, or do not have permission to go.

6.) The amendment was clearly outside of the intent of the sponsor of the bill. If Rep. Knudsen wants to change the statute about orange, then he should find an LC to use, and craft the bill, rather than attempt to insert such a sweeping change in code as a simple amendment.

This is pretty much my viewpoint. ^^^^ In no way do I want to infringe on private property rights, I'm a landowner myself, but I see a huge potential for increased accidental trespass. The only thing I object to is for landowners to not have to spray orange paint. If that language had not been scrapped, I don't see any problems with the way the bill had been written.

 

[antlerradar]

I've no doubt you deal with some real gems every fall. But help me understand how a change in the status of a property from open, closed, leased, outfitted, etc., will change how much trespassing takes place? Or is it, landowners are just passing the hassle of dealing with it to somebody else? I'd almost bet that places that offer zero access, have the most trespassing problems.

Mostly it is just passing the hassle to the outfitter. Outfitters are on your property every day, some even hire rent a cops to patrol thier leases. The local "gems" quickly learn the property's that are watched. I spend a lot of hunting season patrolling the roads or setting on a high hill watching over our property. It helps.
I have been solicited more than a few times about leasing the property. Part of the sales pitch is that the Outfitter will deal with the slobs. This and that they will do a better job of management than FWP are almost always pitched before the money. My bet is that outfitters put this in there sales pitch because it works.
I am sure that there are some poachers look for places with with little access with the hope that it will be better. After all if you are going to poach you might as well do it in the best spots. The reality is most trespassing a matter of convenience. Most often they are driving on a public road and there is a buck so they shoot him. The amount of trespassing is directly related to the amount of public road and land your property is adjacent to. The rut is the worst as during the rut the opportunities to shoot a buck from the road increase expectantly. The bigger bucks will not last long if they are close to the road. Many landowners get tired of trying to keep them from getting shot by some butt head. It is far easier to sell them to the outfitter.

 

[Gerald Martin]

Mostly it is just passing the hassle to the outfitter. Outfitters are on your property every day, some even hire rent a cops to patrol thier leases. The local "gems" quickly learn the property's that are watched. I spend a lot of hunting season patrolling the roads or setting on a high hill watching over our property. It helps.
I have been solicited more than a few times about leasing the property. Part of the sales pitch is that the Outfitter will deal with the slobs. This and that they will do a better job of management than FWP are almost always pitched before the money. My bet is that outfitters put this in there sales pitch because it works.
I am sure that there are some poachers look for places with with little access with the hope that it will be better. After all if you are going to poach you might as well do it in the best spots. The reality is most trespassing a matter of convenience. Most often they are driving on a public road and there is a buck so they shoot him. The amount of trespassing is directly related to the amount of public road and land your property is adjacent to. The rut is the worst as during the rut the opportunities to shoot a buck from the road increase expectantly. The bigger bucks will not last long if they are close to the road. Many landowners get tired of trying to keep them from getting shot by some butt head. It is far easier to sell them to the outfitter.

Reminds me of a story from a couple years ago. My friend and I were hunting around your neck of the woods and were on our way out of town to our hunting spot. It was just after daylight and a small mule deer buck crossed the road in front of us. Private land on all sides. The lighting was really nice so I stopped in the road and took some pictures of the deer. As I started to drive away, I heard my tire hissing as it went flat from a rock puncture. I pulled off to the side of the road, got out my jack and started working to change the tire. We were about 3/4 mile from a ranch house and I had barely gotten the lug nuts loose before I saw plumes of dusk coming towards me from both directions.

Both pickups pulled up to me at about the same time and the drivers had really stern looks on their faces. They quickly relaxed when they saw I was changing a tire instead of poaching a deer and invited me to bring the flat back to their shop to plug it and re-inflate the tire. Super nice guys, but I could tell they had zero tolerance for trespassing. Can't say that I blame them.

It wasn't you that helped me out that day was it? I think they told me their names but I don't remember them anymore.

 

[antlerradar]

Not me. I do have a very funny bad tire story though.

 

[katqanna]

Y'all know me, I like clarity in laws and to help the public understand those laws. That is why I really would hate to see those landowner orange paint and signage requirements struck from Billings Rep. Peggy Webb's HB 231.

Hell, some people have a hard enough time with the orange paint and signs. Take Sen. Roger Webb from Billings, for instance. Sen. Webb was issued 4 citations on Nov. 25, 2015 for unlawful hunting from a public hwy, unlawful possession of a game animal, hunting deer over limit and failure to obtain landowner permission for hunting.

As it was, the court must have felt sorry for him cause they
- dismissed his hunting from a public hwy with it's 24 months mandatory suspension of privileges
- dismissed his unlawful possession with it's 24 months mandatory suspension of privileges and $535 fine
- reduced the $170 fine for hunting without landowner permission to $135
- and reduced the 24 months mandatory suspension of privileges to 12 months on the over limit, reduced the $635 fine to $500 and did not charge him the $500 restitution (restitution goes to FWP Enforcement, which helps towards hunter education).

Clearly, we need the public to be able to distinguish private property to prevent such cases. We wouldn't want Peggy's husband Roger confused about private property boundaries, incurring another offense now that he is getting his hunting privileges back.

 

[RobG]

Y'all know me, I like clarity in laws and to help the public understand those laws. That is why I really would hate to see those landowner orange paint and signage requirements struck from Billings Rep. Peggy Webb's HB 231.

Hell, some people have a hard enough time with the orange paint and signs. Take Sen. Roger Webb from Billings, for instance. Sen. Webb was issued 4 citations on Nov. 25, 2015 for unlawful hunting from a public hwy, unlawful possession of a game animal, hunting deer over limit and failure to obtain landowner permission for hunting.

As it was, the court must have felt sorry for him cause they
- dismissed his hunting from a public hwy with it's 24 months mandatory suspension of privileges
- dismissed his unlawful possession with it's 24 months mandatory suspension of privileges and $535 fine
- reduced the $170 fine for hunting without landowner permission to $135
- and reduced the 24 months mandatory suspension of privileges to 12 months on the over limit, reduced the $635 fine to $500 and did not charge him the $500 restitution (restitution goes to FWP Enforcement, which helps towards hunter education).

Clearly, we need the public to be able to distinguish private property to prevent such cases. We wouldn't want Peggy's husband Roger confused about private property boundaries, incurring another offense now that he is getting his hunting privileges back.

Holy cow. Imagine the marital strife this will cause. The dude has a hard enough time recognizing property boundaries and now his wife goes and removes all the posting requirements. How the hell is this guy going to know where to hunt? She's gunna get an ass whoop'n from her husband if you guys don't write and kill this bill! Write your Representatives now! For her sake if nothing else.

 

[teamhoyt]

^thats a good idea Kat! Isn't it funny how the world turns

 

[Big Fin]

Y'all know me, I like clarity in laws and to help the public understand those laws. That is why I really would hate to see those landowner orange paint and signage requirements struck from Billings Rep. Peggy Webb's HB 231.

Hell, some people have a hard enough time with the orange paint and signs. Take Sen. Roger Webb from Billings, for instance. Sen. Webb was issued 4 citations on Nov. 25, 2015 for unlawful hunting from a public hwy, unlawful possession of a game animal, hunting deer over limit and failure to obtain landowner permission for hunting.

As it was, the court must have felt sorry for him cause they
- dismissed his hunting from a public hwy with it's 24 months mandatory suspension of privileges
- dismissed his unlawful possession with it's 24 months mandatory suspension of privileges and $535 fine
- reduced the $170 fine for hunting without landowner permission to $135
- and reduced the 24 months mandatory suspension of privileges to 12 months on the over limit, reduced the $635 fine to $500 and did not charge him the $500 restitution (restitution goes to FWP Enforcement, which helps towards hunter education).

Clearly, we need the public to be able to distinguish private property to prevent such cases. We wouldn't want Peggy's husband Roger confused about private property boundaries, incurring another offense now that he is getting his hunting privileges back.

Are you kidding me, Kat?

I must have been on the road when that chit hit the fan. Unbelievable. Cannot believe this is the first I heard of that.

Montana voters take note. This clown got re-elected in November for another four years. With that result, Montana voters have not a single rock to stand on when criticizing the clowns other states elect. It appears we are hell-bent on electing our own circus act, with full and complete allegiance to the all mighty party. Wonder how he will vote on a trespass bill when it gets to the Senate?

Rob, I hope your case is heard by the same Sweetgrass County judge. The judge evidently doesn't mind poaching, trespassing, shooting from roads, over limit. Hiking a long-standing public trail seems pretty tame compared to the pardonable actions of the esteemed Senator from Billings.

 

[katqanna]

Wonder how he will vote on a trespass bill when it gets to the Senate?

Bite your tongue We don't want it to get that far, we need to kill it now. They allowed HB 231 out of committee

Under the definitions of 45-6-201, (5) it states, "The department of fish, wildlife, and parks shall attempt to educate and inform all persons holding hunting, fishing, or trapping licenses or permits by including on any publication concerning the licenses or permits, in condensed form, the provisions of this section concerning entry on private land. The department shall use public media, as well as its own publications, in attempting to educate and inform other recreational users of the provisions of this section. In the interests of providing the public with clear information regarding the public nature of certain unfenced rural rights-of-way, the department may develop and distribute posting signs that satisfy the requirements of subsection (3)."

Revised FWP and DNRC publications and education efforts involving trespass would affect not only FWP, but our DNRC with the State trust public lands and connecting Federal public lands agencies publications, and MACO with the counties, at least.

In the original form of the HB 231, there would probably not have been a fiscal note, as the legislative page indicates, but from my understanding of fiscal notes (Fiscal Note Training Manual, 2017 Session) I found it online to see the requirements, "According to 5-4-201, MCA, fiscal notes are required on all bills reported out of a committee having an effect on the revenues, expenditures, or fiscal liability of the state or of a county or municipality, except appropriation measures carrying specific dollar amounts. Statutory provisions regarding fiscal notes may be found in 5-4-201 through 5-4-210, MCA."

The Legislative page for this bill states it is out of committee. How could it be let out of committee without a fiscal note?

 

[antlerradar]

Y'all know me, I like clarity in laws and to help the public understand those laws. That is why I really would hate to see those landowner orange paint and signage requirements struck from Billings Rep. Peggy Webb's HB 231.

Hell, some people have a hard enough time with the orange paint and signs. Take Sen. Roger Webb from Billings, for instance. Sen. Webb was issued 4 citations on Nov. 25, 2015 for unlawful hunting from a public hwy, unlawful possession of a game animal, hunting deer over limit and failure to obtain landowner permission for hunting.

As it was, the court must have felt sorry for him cause they
- dismissed his hunting from a public hwy with it's 24 months mandatory suspension of privileges
- dismissed his unlawful possession with it's 24 months mandatory suspension of privileges and $535 fine
- reduced the $170 fine for hunting without landowner permission to $135
- and reduced the 24 months mandatory suspension of privileges to 12 months on the over limit, reduced the $635 fine to $500 and did not charge him the $500 restitution (restitution goes to FWP Enforcement, which helps towards hunter education).

Clearly, we need the public to be able to distinguish private property to prevent such cases. We wouldn't want Peggy's husband Roger confused about private property boundaries, incurring another offense now that he is getting his hunting privileges back.

This is the kind of guy that gets my blood pressure up.
Not only should have Webb been voted out but I would also take a hard look at the county attorney. No county attorney should allow a plee bargain this one sided to go forward.
Sportsman take note. If you are interested in moving toward better landowner relations and better access get legislation passed that holds the Webb's of this state accountable.

 

[onpoint]

"If you are interested in moving toward better landowner relations and better access get legislation passed that holds the Webb's of this state accountable".

I'd suggest the ultimate measure of accountability rests with the voters. Apparently the voters of his district are just fine with his character or oblivious to it. To me - that is a powerful and disturbing statement. And a glaring example of why we, as sportsmen/women, fight the battles we are faced with continually. Voters, on either side, seem to be willing to accept the baggage that comes with what they perceive as positives their candidate possesses. A very difficult fix when it come to politics and in particularly- politicians.
It all comes down to the voters IM(not so)HO, will the wake up ever happen....

Paraphrase Winston Churchill - whose bust is in Trump's office - "best argument against democracy is the average voter".

 

[katqanna]

I have been dealing with this game warden citation data for about 2 months now. I will subsort a certain section of data, see something that makes me question, have to get in touch with Enforcement for more data to understand why the numbers were such. Each time, FWP has been generous in providing what I am requesting, which helps with the bigger picture and the fine details.

I had one conservation hunter and angler friend ask me why I was even doing this, that Enforcement were just a bunch of citation happy writing police wannabes. That made me wonder what their contact versus citation ratio was. So I requested their monthly warden reports for each region for the 6 years, had to manually count all of their monthly contacts then calculate the percentage of citation issued. There is no frickin way that anyone can ever say that FWP Wardens are citation happy writing - ever again. Not one region was above 5%.

Then when I sort for citation results, looking at deferred sentence, dismissals, not guilty, for example, other pictures emerge on the Judicial end, as well as the lack of MANDATORY suspensions and restitutions that are not taking place, especially in certain counties, we see issues with the county attorneys, justice of the peace and judges. I have also interviewed justice of the peace, judges and attorneys for this report. There is some serious dropping of the ball on the judicial end of things that is concerning a number of us that have been looking at my data analysis. I had dinner with Stan Meyer, a previous FWP Commissioner, while I was up north for a month, showed him what I was working on after dinner to get his perspective; he said this was going to be like dropping bombs when I put this out.

I am hoping to convey to the hunter/anglers and other conservationists, the importance of voting for their county elected officials, such as the justice of the peace, county attorneys and judges. We also need to convey to these judicial elected officials our concern for the resource, not wanting a tragedy of the commons. If they dismiss cases routinely, not follow through on fines, mandatory suspensions and restitutions, then our sportsmens dollars that pay for enforcement to do their job protecting the resource are being flushed down the judicial toilet and the courts are enabling the criminals - perpetuating the problems.

I have gotten a number of responses from our Representatives in the last couple of days, from my email I sent to all the Representatives on this HB 231, some thanking me for the information, they did not know, some expressing their displeasure with the amendment hijacking. A few have said they are concerned because if people vote party lines, this bill will pass and Montana will be set backwards 30+ years.

 

[antlerradar]

That sounds like a good project and unfortunately needed. Game law are taken far to lightly by too many attorneys and judges.

 

[RobG]

This is the kind of guy that gets my blood pressure up.
Not only should have Webb been voted out but I would also take a hard look at the county attorney. No county attorney should allow a plee bargain this one sided to go forward.
Sportsman take note. If you are interested in moving toward better landowner relations and better access get legislation passed that holds the Webb's of this state accountable.

Jeeze Louise, before poaching that deer Roger Webb poached his neighbor's dog. http://billingsgazette.com/news/sta...cle_7fd54962-efc7-5840-b151-30f601203388.html

 

[Topgun 30-06]

Jeeze Louise, before poaching that deer Roger Webb poached his neighbor's dog. http://billingsgazette.com/news/sta...cle_7fd54962-efc7-5840-b151-30f601203388.html

Sounds like a great guy---NOT!

 

[Straight Arrow]

Now you know what we're up against in the Montana Legislature! Don't ask how we keep electing these people. It's crazy.

 

[katqanna]

Just confirmed with FWP, they have not received a request for the fiscal note that should be required for this bill.

 

[katqanna]

Was watching the House Floor Session, HB 231 was skipped, I refreshed my page and HB 231 was removed from the agenda queue. I refreshed the Bill page and it now says, "2nd Reading Pass Consideration".

Hopefully, someone is going to take that fiscal note information I emailed all the Representatives yesterday seriously and perhaps push for this amendment to be removed from HB 231.