MT Ram Sting??

[thecrittergitter]

Hey, I had heard from a couple folks today that the 204 Ram as well as another 195+ ram that were taken in unit 680 were set up as a sting operation by fwp to get an "illegal guiding" service. The word i got is that the guy who "guided" two of the sheep hunters there was not an actual licensed guide. I heard fwp has confiscated the two sheep..........

Anyone else got any of the latest on these sheep?

 

[Oak]

Interesting. From what I've heard about this so far it wouldn't surprise me, and would clear up a couple of things that have been nagging me about the whole story.

 

[MNHunter]

Whoa! If true, that would suck for the hunters to lose their sheep. I hope the "guide" gets the book thrown at him.

 

[thecrittergitter]

I agree 100%!!!! If it is the case, i hope they nail his azz to the wall........from what i gathered, this guy scouts and takes pics of these sheep and when he finds the big guys, he finds out who the tagholders are. He then calls them, shows them this monster and says for $$$$$$$$$ amount of money, i will take you right to this sheep.
Guess we will see in short time.................

 

[Desert Sheep]

Maybe that's why the B&C site changed their text from "Hunter's name not disclosed" to "Full details pending" ?

Lots of different rumors (I've heard 2 other versions) as to what happened and how. This will be interesting when it all comes out.

 

[drahthaar]

Yes, but did the guy have to pull the trigger on a world class ram, to make the arrest? Why not just arrest the guy on the spot. Why do you need a dead ram?

 

[sreekers]

My guess would be that there was no money exchanged until the animal was down. The money exchanged alongside the dead animal is the evidence needed for a conviction. Just my thinking.

 

[BuzzH]

sreekers,

Not true. A very good friend of mine has been undercover in similar situations and has "missed" big-game animals while on the illegal outfitted hunts. As far as I've ever heard all charges stuck like glue...despite the "miss".

 

[Big Fin]

Before everyone gets in a French-Canadian Frenzy about a ram dying as part of this, they might want to wait for the full facts.

It is my understanding that the undercover guy had drawn a tag, and agreed to go undercover.

I got that from a what have historically been very reliable sources.

The guys over on Bowsite.com are hummpped up like monkeys fuggin' a jug over this, assuming FWP killed a huge ram just to bust someone.

My sources may also be wrong, but it seems a lot more logical that they would do it through a guy who drew a tag, rather than go kill a whopper ram, just to pinch a guy.

I will wait for the full story before making my judgement.

Much more to come, I am sure.

Happy Hunting!

 

[yukonjacko]

I don't understand what difference it would make if the guy drew a tag and agreed to go undercover. If he was guided by an illegal guide, the sheep would still be an illegally taken sheep, would be confiscated and ineligible for any record book standing as it would have been poached.

The odds of a man drawing a 680 permit your first year of applying would be astronomical. He probably did draw the permit with FWP's help.

FWP could have made a case without this great ram being killed.

 

[BuzzH]

Actually, the odds of drawing that tag the first year you apply in MT would not be much worse than someone with max "bogus" points.

I think the guy applied and got lucky on the draw and agreed to help the FWP because he likely doesnt give a rip about record book standings.

To be honest, I bet there are a good number of hunters who would sacrifice a silly standing in a record book to help the FWP bust up an illegal outfitter or expose a poaching ring. In particular those hunters that care the most about wildlife.

I dont know whats going on with this case...but what Bigfin posted makes the most sense to me.

I dont believe the FWP somehow made sure this guy drew a ram permit.

 

[cjcj]

Why wouldn't the guy who shot the Ram keep it? As long as he had a tag? and was helping Leo's?... Throw the Book at the "unlicenced guides.. But the hunter????? wouldn' he still get the Ram... or will he at least get another tag [replacement]

 

[Big Fin]

cjcj:

You are exactly right, the hunter would get to keep the ram. It would be the outfitter with his d!ck in the ringer.

It would not be an illegally taken sheep, unless the hunter committed the violation and therefore, would not be confiscated and would be eligible for entry into the record book.

If the guy did actually draw this tag, as told to me, I doubt that FWP did anything to make sure of that.

More facts to come, I am sure.

 

[Bambistew]

Very intersting. Outfitters are such a wonderful group of people, helping out the hunting "cause" in every way they can.

Wasn't there a 'sting' a couple years ago where the undercover shot a couple animals at the 'outfitters' request? Seems like the outfitter was out of Bozeman IIRC.

It just seemed odd to me that the undercover would purposly break the law (poach an elk if I remember right) inorder to nail the outfitter. Sure its just an elk... but at some point you have to draw the line don't you?

 

[Horn Seeker]

I just hope Fin is right and the shooter had a drawn tag. If FWP used a 204 ram to convict this guy of guiding illegally.. the guy wont go to jail..the guy will get a slap on the wrist. They recently convicted a guy of outfitting illegally AND poaching upwards of 82 animals (#'s could be slightly off) over the last 10-15 years and the guy is not spending a day in JAIL!
Bottom line...if no tag is involved, we lose a monster ram and the criminal gets a slap on the wrist and ??? for what.
I am eager to hear the juicy details/truth...
Ernie

 

[JB]

It would not be an illegally taken sheep, unless the hunter committed the violation and therefore, would not be confiscated and would be eligible for entry into the record book.

I disagree.....if the hunter was aware of the outfitter being unlicensed before the animal was taken then the hunter would be guilty also. No? In this case, the hunter made the choice to cooperate with law inforcement to make an arrest and be able to have the evidence to convict.... fully aware of legality of hunt. Couldnt he have declined the invite on the sting operation for a hunt by a licensed guide? this just plain schmells funny!

why Two sheep?

 

[thecrittergitter]

My stories that I received were right in line with what Big Fin has stated. The hunter had a valid tag and was working with FWP to bust the guy. You must remember, the guy doing the illegal guiding was doing this consistently.........finding out who drew the tags, and calling them for his "guide" service. FWP can contact that person even easier obviously prior to "mr Guide" calling him. Because of this, I seriously doubt that FWP actually helped the guy get a tag..........

As for the sheep being confiscated, i doubt it. It was a valid tag and because he was assising FWP, it is not going to be considered illegal for the hunter.

GOOD FOR THEM!!!!! Hope they take that "guides" hunting privelages away for 20 fuggin years.........

FWP is not high on my list of people who have great choices in the past but i can tell you that they would not kill a world class ram just to bust somebody. A shot and a miss would be evidence enough to bust the guy.

The heck with all this crap, why cant i get a damn sheep tagLOL

 

[phutch30]

Problem is this wasnt a hunter it was an undercover game warden. yea maybe he drew a tag..NOT.. and agreed to the sting. Im waiting to see the details of this but I think FWP screwed Montana's hunters over. You dont need to kill the animal for a conviction.

 

[BuzzH]

How do you know the hunter killed the ram?

Maybe one of the guides "helped out".

 

[phutch30]

Maybe one did, but the person charged was John Lewton, who was filming the whole thing so, how do you film and shoot a ram?