Montana - Time to Shake it Up?

[The Hedgehog]

I recommend the use of chatgpt to make your response more understandable and persuasive.

 

[tjones]

. I dunno all I was saying is I seen a assload of deer last season.

They’re there. Seen em with my own two eyes on turners near Retard Point. And still, there’s a butt-ton of elk….

What are the chances Visiting Hunter is Foodsmemories/Flatbrimmer?

 

[bigsky2]

Sure it can be arbitrary if your making it. What do I mean by opportunity in this case? Being able to harvest deer, plain and simple. Yes they could have been in the freezer, I saw a lot of one and two year old bucks, a moderate amount of small 3 and 4 points, and two nice bucks - probably not even super old, maybe 3 or 4 years.. And tons and tons of does. I just had some time off this season and wanted to go around where I grew up. Sorry for sharing my observations, lol. And what the GW said lined up with what I saw.. You all are wacky in here.

What I saw and what you are all trying to say 10 bucks to 100 does just isn't lining up for me in regions 3 4 and 6 atleast. But carry on. I'm listening.

I don’t know what to tell everyone who is not seeing deer. I saw a lot. Maybe you should get out from behind the windshield.
View attachment 316321

We do hunt for coyotes, gophers, turkey, some waterfowl, bear, deer and elk. Fish more then my wife says is healthy. I guess I don’t hunt for lions. I don’t know anyone with dogs and I’m not willing to pay for a lion hunt. I guess I haven't ever delibertly hunted for wolves either. My bad. Grab the tag but dont exclusively search for wolves if the opportunity came around sure. I mean I take my bow out too just for more opportunities Lol you can all try and read between the lines like you all seem to do. And pick it apart. Simply the opportunities to harvest are there like GW said. I do what I can to be in the woods so I have those opportunities. with my family and work schedule. And I feel fortunate enough to be able to go out without using vacation time since I'm flat rate I get to work when I want too. Take the time off I want too without using paid time. And be able to make it up or do it ahead of time. And aquire alot of paid time off to spend out doing what I enjoy. But you can all assume all you want. Your all out in the cabbage.

You walk a fine line of taking away things and never getting them back. Just be careful what you wish for.

How long have you lived in Montana?

 

[Visiting Hunter]

I recommend the use of chatgpt to make your response more understandable

I go from bot. To illegible. Again I dunno what to tell you all. Just my observations.

 

[Visiting Hunter]

How long have you lived in Montana?

31 going on 32.

 

[8andcounting]

 

[Gerald Martin]

I think you better get used to this kind of management.

If you read the stuff on CWD, this will put Montana in the perfect place management wise, actually well ahead of the curve.

I was in a small meeting with the CWD experts in Wyoming about a year ago along with our area biologists and this is exactly what they want. And, exactly what they're going to do.

I was able to put if off for a couple years, but they just completed an "attitude" survey and are going to, no doubt, claim they have broad public support for killing off mule deer bucks in the rut, low buck to doe ratios, and decreased total populations.

I'm done fighting it...I'll just apply for some of the late season rut hunts and let the "good times" roll. You know, because its best for the resource.

Montana has been managing mule deerfor CWD since 1965. They just didn’t know it. Eleven week general seasons, single digit post season buck/doe ratios, downward trends in overall population, and low buck age class. We’re the poster child of what to expect in stopping the spread of CWD by killing off bucks. We have stopped CWD from spreading much better than any of the states with more bucks and more deer.

Oh wait. We actually haven’t.

 

[Elky Welky]

Don't let them get you down @Visiting Hunter. Your observations track with much of the data FWP collected in their survey, here: https://fwp.mt.gov/binaries/content...ule-deer-resident-deer-hunter-survey-2023.pdf

Read this survey with a hefty grain of salt, and note that FWP has a bad habit of lumping people who listed "3" in the 1-5 categories as being "in support" as opposed to truly neutral. But even then, the people who are by-and-large content with how things are (the 4s and 5s) outnumber the small and loud group you see here.

Montana is indeed huge. Many of the folks concerned with mule deer are very vocal about their specific region and ascribe the problems in their region to the entire state. There's no question there are problems in Regions 6 and 7, and no question FWP can do a better job managing mule deer to satisfy people who want to shoot big bucks, does, and everything in between. Fixing these kinds of issues starts with engaging in productive conversation, sitting down and meeting people face-to-face, going to FWP meetings, commission meetings, talking with biologists, legislators, LTEs, Op-Eds, etc. It's a slow grind, and the people that have been watching the deer herds in their neck of the prairie deteriorate over the last 30 years are sick and tired of it, some for good reasons. But sadly, they are more than happy to point their rage at anyone who steps in and thinks otherwise, even if they are trying to help.

To stay sane in this space takes the ability to step back and look at the bigger picture, and acknowledge that if you're here, then you're probably already on the same side. I'm as guilty as the next guy of falling into the traps of the internet trolls, but as the saying goes, if you get in the mud with a pig...

I'm happy to hear the meeting went well @Gerald Martin. I look forward to what this group brings forward at future commission meetings and perhaps even the legislative session.

 

[Gerald Martin]

Opportunity- “I saw lots of deer but nothing that was older than 4 1/2 years old and was probably not more than 3 1/2.”

That experience mirrors mine for the past decade. I just don’t call it opportunity.

Deer in the wild have the potential to reach more than ten years old. When bucks that are just half of their potential are less than one percent of the population ( I bet it’s even less than one percent), doesn’t that affect a person’s understanding of “opportunity”?

I have the opportunity to observe mature bull elk on Ted Turner’s ranch and in Big Sky subdivisions dozens of times each hunting season. I am pretty confident I can kill a cow on public land if I hunt at least ten days. I’m somewhat confident I can see a rag horn bull during those ten days of public land hunting. I’m not at all confident that a mature six point bull or mature deer even exists on the accessible land that I am hunting. Thanks for the great wildlife management strategy that gives me so much “opportunity” FWP.

I suppose I need to “get connected” to private ranch property as the past director of FWP suggested to me. Or, I need to lace up my boots and hunt a little harder.

Or perhaps it’s time that Montana hunters stop accepting the definition of “opportunity” as having the ability to shoot an either sex deer even if it’s only a year and a half old buck.

The hell of it is that we could have so much more real opportunity and better quality management of the resource if we changed our approach to hunting opportunity.

 

[Visiting Hunter]

Opportunity- “I saw lots of deer but nothing that was older than 4 1/2 years old and was probably not more than 3 1/2.”

That experience mirrors mine for the past decade. I just don’t call it opportunity.

Deer in the wild have the potential to reach more than ten years old. When bucks that are just half of their potential are less than one percent of the population ( I bet it’s even less than one percent), doesn’t that affect a person’s understanding of “opportunity”?

I have the opportunity to observe mature bull elk on Ted Turner’s ranch and in Big Sky subdivisions dozens of times each hunting season. I am pretty confident I can kill a cow on public land if I hunt at least ten days. I’m somewhat confident I can see a rag horn bull during those ten days of public land hunting. I’m not at all confident that a mature six point bull or mature deer even exists on the accessible land that I am hunting. Thanks for the great wildlife management strategy that gives me so much “opportunity” FWP.

I suppose I need to “get connected” to private ranch property as the past director of FWP suggested to me. Or, I need to lace up my boots and hunt a little harder.

Or perhaps it’s time that Montana hunters stop accepting the definition of “opportunity” as having the ability to shoot an either sex deer even if it’s only a year and a half old buck.

The hell of it is that we could have so much more real opportunity and better quality management of the resource if we changed our approach to hunting opportunity.

this discussion should be about improving habitats and protecting them. not taking away hunts. . . But what do I know.

Don't let them get you down @Visiting Hunter. Your observations track with much of the data FWP collected in their survey, here: https://fwp.mt.gov/binaries/content...ule-deer-resident-deer-hunter-survey-2023.pdf

Read this survey with a hefty grain of salt, and note that FWP has a bad habit of lumping people who listed "3" in the 1-5 categories as being "in support" as opposed to truly neutral. But even then, the people who are by-and-large content with how things are (the 4s and 5s) outnumber the small and loud group you see here.

Montana is indeed huge. Many of the folks concerned with mule deer are very vocal about their specific region and ascribe the problems in their region to the entire state. There's no question there are problems in Regions 6 and 7, and no question FWP can do a better job managing mule deer to satisfy people who want to shoot big bucks, does, and everything in between. Fixing these kinds of issues starts with engaging in productive conversation, sitting down and meeting people face-to-face, going to FWP meetings, commission meetings, talking with biologists, legislators, LTEs, Op-Eds, etc. It's a slow grind, and the people that have been watching the deer herds in their neck of the prairie deteriorate over the last 30 years are sick and tired of it, some for good reasons. But sadly, they are more than happy to point their rage at anyone who steps in and thinks otherwise, even if they are trying to help.

To stay sane in this space takes the ability to step back and look at the bigger picture, and acknowledge that if you're here, then you're probably already on the same side. I'm as guilty as the next guy of falling into the traps of the internet trolls, but as the saying goes, if you get in the mud with a pig...

I'm happy to hear the meeting went well @Gerald Martin. I look forward to what this group brings forward at future commission meetings and perhaps even the legislative session.

I appreciate it. Im not super worried about it. I see a who is bill christy poll.. halfway expecting to be next... I can take a good laugh... just be creative atleast. Thanks for the material I'll read into it after work tonight.

 

[The Hedgehog]

The lions share of folks taking those hunter satisfaction surveys for mule deer hunting and type 2 BMAs — right there folks.

 

[huntin24/7]

this discussion should be about improving habitats and protecting them. not taking away hunts. . . But what do I know.


I appreciate it. Im not super worried about it. I see a who is bill christy poll.. halfway expecting to be next... I can take a good laugh... just be creative atleast. Thanks for the material I'll read into it after work tonight.

I think one thing that gets misconstrued a lot is that guys want to go all LE or take hunts as you mentioned. The reality is that the majority of even the most ardent supporters (particularly on this site) of changing muley management here in MT don’t want all LE or or that type of extreme. I don’t really think of it as taking opportunity. It’s more like changing opportunity. For instance the month of November is actually less opportunity than the month of October for hunt days as an example. That would provide any hunter ample opportunity to fill deer tags while also increasing age structure somewhat.

 

[Gerald Martin]

this discussion should be about improving habitats and protecting them. not taking away hunts. . . But what do I know.

Please enlighten me on how improving and protecting habitat is going to allow a buck that gets shot at 2 1/2 years old survive to 4 1/2 years old?

Habitat conservation and improvement is an important part of good resource management. Habitat factors into herd recruitment and winter survival. It has nothing to do with over exploitation of the resource during hunting season.

 

[sclancy27]

Please enlighten me on how improving and protecting habitat is going to allow a buck that gets shot at 2 1/2 years old survive to 4 1/2 years old?

Habitat conservation and improvement is an important part of good resource management. Habitat factors into herd recruitment and winter survival. It has nothing to do with over exploitation of the resource during hunting season.

You could argue "protecting habitat" would be shutting down roads which would increase escapement.

 

[tjones]

Ya there are so many MD deer in R6 they shut down doe hunting.

 

[Gerald Martin]

Don't let them get you down @Visiting Hunter. Your observations track with much of the data FWP collected in their survey, here: https://fwp.mt.gov/binaries/content...ule-deer-resident-deer-hunter-survey-2023.pdf

Read this survey with a hefty grain of salt, and note that FWP has a bad habit of lumping people who listed "3" in the 1-5 categories as being "in support" as opposed to truly neutral. But even then, the people who are by-and-large content with how things are (the 4s and 5s) outnumber the small and loud group you see here.

Montana is indeed huge. Many of the folks concerned with mule deer are very vocal about their specific region and ascribe the problems in their region to the entire state. There's no question there are problems in Regions 6 and 7, and no question FWP can do a better job managing mule deer to satisfy people who want to shoot big bucks, does, and everything in between. Fixing these kinds of issues starts with engaging in productive conversation, sitting down and meeting people face-to-face, going to FWP meetings, commission meetings, talking with biologists, legislators, LTEs, Op-Eds, etc. It's a slow grind, and the people that have been watching the deer herds in their neck of the prairie deteriorate over the last 30 years are sick and tired of it, some for good reasons. But sadly, they are more than happy to point their rage at anyone who steps in and thinks otherwise, even if they are trying to help.

To stay sane in this space takes the ability to step back and look at the bigger picture, and acknowledge that if you're here, then you're probably already on the same side. I'm as guilty as the next guy of falling into the traps of the internet trolls, but as the saying goes, if you get in the mud with a pig...

I'm happy to hear the meeting went well @Gerald Martin. I look forward to what this group brings forward at future commission meetings and perhaps even the legislative session.

I found it very interesting that when we met, folks with a wide range of experience across different localities and with sometimes competing interests only took about ten minutes to unanimously agree that mule deer are over exploited by hunters in Montana and that current management practices are unsustainable.

How we bring resource exploitation from hunters to a sustainable level is the continuing discussion. Wishing that “opportunities” don’t change or diminish doesn’t change the fact that mule deer are on the decline in both quality and in population across much of the state. MT FWP’s own numbers show this as a reality.

Some folks on this site articulate this politely. Some articulate it rudely. There’s enough folks articulating the conclusions that FWP data projects that there’s an articulation to suit anyone’s way they can hear.

“Opportunity” is going to change one way or another. We have the ability now to determine what that opportunity is going to look like in five, ten or many more years to come.
One thing for certain is that an unchanged management strategy will ensure that there will be less mule deer, less bucks, less opportunity for hunting mule deer in ten years than there will be if we place the needs of the resource first and tie opportunity to harvest from that resource to the health of the resource.

 

[cgasner1]

Don't let them get you down @Visiting Hunter. Your observations track with much of the data FWP collected in their survey, here: https://fwp.mt.gov/binaries/content...ule-deer-resident-deer-hunter-survey-2023.pdf

Read this survey with a hefty grain of salt, and note that FWP has a bad habit of lumping people who listed "3" in the 1-5 categories as being "in support" as opposed to truly neutral. But even then, the people who are by-and-large content with how things are (the 4s and 5s) outnumber the small and loud group you see here.

Montana is indeed huge. Many of the folks concerned with mule deer are very vocal about their specific region and ascribe the problems in their region to the entire state. There's no question there are problems in Regions 6 and 7, and no question FWP can do a better job managing mule deer to satisfy people who want to shoot big bucks, does, and everything in between. Fixing these kinds of issues starts with engaging in productive conversation, sitting down and meeting people face-to-face, going to FWP meetings, commission meetings, talking with biologists, legislators, LTEs, Op-Eds, etc. It's a slow grind, and the people that have been watching the deer herds in their neck of the prairie deteriorate over the last 30 years are sick and tired of it, some for good reasons. But sadly, they are more than happy to point their rage at anyone who steps in and thinks otherwise, even if they are trying to help.

To stay sane in this space takes the ability to step back and look at the bigger picture, and acknowledge that if you're here, then you're probably already on the same side. I'm as guilty as the next guy of falling into the traps of the internet trolls, but as the saying goes, if you get in the mud with a pig...

I'm happy to hear the meeting went well @Gerald Martin. I look forward to what this group brings forward at future commission meetings and perhaps even the legislative session.

I have enough faith in fwp if they gave me a bill over a 20 I’d want it checked with a highlighter to make sure it’s real

 

[sclancy27]

I found it very interesting that when we met, folks with a wide range of experience across different localities and with sometimes competing interests only took about ten minutes to unanimously agree that mule deer are over exploited by hunters in Montana and that current management practices are unsustainable.

How we bring resource exploitation from hunters to a sustainable level is the continuing discussion. Wishing that “opportunities” don’t change or diminish doesn’t change the fact that mule deer are on the decline in both quality and in population across much of the state. MT FWP’s own numbers show this as a reality.

Some folks on this site articulate this politely. Some articulate it rudely. There’s enough folks articulating the conclusions that FWP data projects that there’s an articulation to suit anyone’s way they can hear.

“Opportunity” is going to change one way or another. We have the ability now to determine what that opportunity is going to look like in five, ten or many more years to come.
One thing for certain is that an unchanged management strategy will ensure that there will be less mule deer, less bucks, less opportunity for hunting mule deer in ten years than there will be if we place the needs of the resource first and tie opportunity to harvest from that resource to the health of the resource.

IMO, total opportunity could stay the same. I mean the opportunity for OTC. Now, I agree we should change the dates and, personally, I would like to see us start to limit weapons. I do not want to see archery favored over rifle, I mean limiting rifles and limiting bows to decrease harvest.

 

[The Hedgehog]

this dipshit eats elk and deer. So this dipshit does need a fanny pack full. Do I need half the year no... is it more enjoyable absolutely yes. 2019 my oldest was born didn't have alot of free time. 2 elk and 3 deer in 4 days. Doesn't make it any more enjoyable to hussle threw it to get it done.

Should we be impressed or are you looking for sympathy? How does your childbearing schedule correlate to mule deer management in Montana and why should anybody care?

If you hunt 4 days and got 5-600 lbs of meat why would you so greatly need rifle deer hunting in November? Will your family starve or are you worried you will not be able to adequately enjoy your couple days of rutting buck rape and pillage?

 

[Elky Welky]

Some folks on this site articulate this politely. Some articulate it rudely.

Sure. And my point to @Visiting Hunter was that the rude ones aren't really worth listening to, because they aren't adding anything the polite ones are already saying better. Alienating, trolling, and insulting your allies is a strange way to build support.

I can't say I walk away from this site many days feeling like Montana hunters are people worth advocating for. Hunting as an activity? The wildlife? Public lands? Habitat? All day. But hunters would do better if they learned how to speak together productively, which that meeting was a start.

And I'm not surprised you all quickly found a baseline, that group was formed here so that was already the general consensus. And like I said, I support it and am interested in seeing where it goes.