brocksw
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Repeat after me, "regulation simplification".
Montana ridiculousness- Pref point debacle
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seeth07
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"does not apply for nonresident combination license" to me means the actual application that is due for the license, not the point only period
So I am reading it as; he didn't have a PP at the draw last year ('21) because he bought the point in July. So by missing the 2022 draw he isn't missing "consecutive draws" he is just missing 1 draw cycle so he shouldn't lose his point.
seeth07
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I believe so. I was considering working on getting a Montana deer tag after having skipped on this state for every year of my life applying and when I read the rule change, I realized that in order for me to want to try and "guarantee" a tag would be to sit out this years draw, buy the point in Sept. before the deadline, skip draw again next year, buy another point and then finally in 2024, enter the draw with adding another point making it 3PP (which is the max) and hopefully having 100% draw success with that.
Shangobango
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My exact conundrum.
The way I read it is: I did not apply for a combo in ‘21 and elected to buy a point and I am not applying for the combo in ‘22 and I am electing to buy a point. Therefore my points should be 0 once the application period ends and I will only be left with the 1 point I buy in ‘22 when the ‘23 app period comes around.
I hope that is wrong.
Also, if I buy a hundred dollar point in July and they end up erasing that and I go into ‘23 with zero, I may be pissed enough to fly up and have that conversation with FWP eye to eye.
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kwyeewyk
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My understanding is you are not wrong, if you have a point and don't apply the first time an application is available you will lose your point. The only way to get to 2 points without applying and not drawing is to buy a point after the application period and then another when you apply the following spring. That will be the next change so only outfitter hunters can jump to 2 points without applying with 1 point first.
brownbear932008
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I seriously thought they would have addressed this in the last session. They only made things worse.
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brocksw
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It wasn't about simplification for worsech and GG. #baitandswitch
8andcounting
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Incorrect . It goes by year . 2021 he technically did miss the draw cuz he did acquire a point , even if it was in the summer . So if he doesn’t apply now they’ll be gone. That’s how I understand it - but I could be wrong who the hell knows anymore with FWP
Shangobango
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That’s the way I understand it as well. I hope @WIbiggame is right and we are wrong though
It didn’t click with me before until someone said it, but it seems the whole reason for the change was to ensure that the DIY crowd can’t go into the draw with 3 points while the outfitted crowd can since they can buy two points at a time. I guess when 3 points is no longer a lock to draw the combo we will see how far they move the goalpost again.
As my favorite Montana resident said to me, “it is a huge crock of shit.”
8andcounting
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So when some guys going with an outfitter get turned down this year , and some with 2 pp will I predict , then next year they’ll have 4? I thought the most was 3 , but won’t they be able to buy 2 every year ? 2 pp will probably not be guaranteed draw this year , it certainly won’t be going forwardThat’s the way I understand it as well. I hope @WIbiggame is right and we are wrong though
It didn’t click with me before until someone said it, but it seems the whole reason for the change was to ensure that the DIY crowd can’t go into the draw with 3 points while the outfitted crowd can since they can buy two points at a time. I guess when 3 points is no longer a lock to draw the combo we will see how far they move the goalpost again.
As my favorite Montana resident said to me, “it is a huge crock of shit.”
Max they can hold is 3. I made this point when the whole HB143 was going through this last fall and they decided that any outfitted client just got a tag regardless. The outfitters are kind of screwing themselves for what they thought was a couple years of tags.
@Shangobango said it right, "let's see how they move the goal posts"
The one positive I could see coming out of it is they will do away with the PP altogether and go to a hybrid system like WY. With just bonus points but keep tags for random draw.
I found this section interesting. Does anyone else read this as Outfitted Clients get a PP for free and "can purchase" a second one for $100? So the rest of us lonely DIY guys have to wait 2 years and spend $200 while the welfare recipients get 1 for free and can only spend 1 year and $100 to get to 2pp?
For a group (Outfitters and theirs clients) who I would assume tote the Red no handout signs they are sure quick to jump in line with their hands outstretched.
8andcounting
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Yeh they’ll get the first one for free and then have to pay $100 for the second
Irishman
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I sent an e.mail to FWP this week about what I see as an issue with preference points. Last year over 70% of the people with zero points drew, but only 40% with one point did. So this year, even the people with 2 points will only have about a 90% chance of drawing, those with 1 point will have ZERO chance of drawing, and those how don't buy a point will probably have a pretty good chance of drawing. So why buy a point? Unless of course the do away with the 25% for those who don't buy points. I would think that they will figure out that it's in their best interest to eliminate the 25% set aside.
It won't always be like this, with the 0pp being so high. It is a huge risk in my eyes to not get a point if you want to have some idea of when you will hunt. The days of being able to hunt a state every year are gone, so having to apply in multiple states and plan, to the best of your ability, when you will draw is what you need.
With that said I like the idea of 25% going to people without points, let's everyone have a shot, a lot of people the extra $300 for buying PP would be a deal breaker, this allows them a chance at a tag atleast.
By not getting a point and not drawing you put yourself 2 years behind the person who bought a point knowing they wouldn't draw. I plan on being able to hunt MT ever 3rd year going forward. So have to work in WY and CO points to cover those other years and probably try in ID and go OTC CO as a final resort. However, I see CO OTC going away within 5-8 years.
Gerald Martin
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@Kiwi, if you apply for a permit in the old 900 area make sure it’s where you want to spend your entire hunt.
New regulations for this year limit people who draw a permit to hunt only that area for the time the permit is valid.
The other interesting part of the outfitter welfare is the last sentance where it says "licenses bought with this point are only valid when hunting with an outfitter".
So if I apply with an outfitter on year 1 and get 2pts but don't draw bc 2pts will be low odds in 2yrs. And I decide that the following year I want to go DYI do I lose 1 of the points bc that point was bought with intent to hunt with an outfitter? How will they regulate this?
So if I apply with an outfitter on year 1 and get 2pts but don't draw bc 2pts will be low odds in 2yrs. And I decide that the following year I want to go DYI do I lose 1 of the points bc that point was bought with intent to hunt with an outfitter? How will they regulate this?
Tiredofthebickering
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Except you can still buy a point in the fall if you don't draw and then buy a point again you apply the following year so you'll go into one year with zero points, then the next year with 2 points and maybe draw. Every other year seems pretty possible.
To my understanding you can't if you apply for a tag. This is all so confusing I am probably wrong but might be right next week?
I thought you either applied for a tag with or without getting a point and that was your chance to buy a point. If you wanted to get a point in the summer you couldn't apply that same spring.
So if you applied with 0pp and didn't draw in year 1, and I apply in year 1 with a 1pp and don't draw. I can buy 1 in year 2 with my app so I will have 2pp and you would have 1pp bought in year 2.
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