Montana mule deer rant

[Irrelevant]

But I'm suspicious (and I could be wrong) that MT simply has too many hunters to be handing everyone a rifle at any point during the fall.

How many deer are killed in Oct? Not many. Killing bucks in Oct is hard. Sure MT will still kill some, heck, maybe even lots, but there's no question it will be better and it still allows them to check the opportunity box. If you don't give every hunter a chance every year you're not offering something palatable.

 

[brocksw]

How many deer are killed in Oct? Not many. Killing bucks in Oct is hard. Sure MT will still kill some, heck, maybe even lots, but there's no question it will be better and it still allows them to check the opportunity box. If you don't give every hunter a chance every year you're not offering something palatable.

I believe Wyomings overall resident success rate for the last couple years is within 5% of MT. Is a 5% improvement all you're seeking with these changes?

 

[El Jason]

I believe Wyomings overall resident success rate for the last couple years is within 5% of MT. Is a 5% improvement all you're seeking with these changes?

Success rate is not an accurate metric. Wyoming’s rate is achieved without general tag rut hunting. I believe Montana’s success rate would be dismal if the mouth breathers couldn’t shoot deer in late November.

 

[huntin24/7]

While there could be exceptions in some units, I’d also like to see mule deer and whitetail tags be separate for the most part with their own season structures.

 

[brocksw]

Success rate is not an accurate metric. Wyoming’s rate is achieved without general tag rut hunting. I believe Montana’s success rate would be dismal if the mouth breathers couldn’t shoot deer in late November.

Perhaps not, and perhaps you're right about MTs hypothetical success. But I would argue every single biologist who's involved in managing mule deer in the west will tell you rifle tags are the most effective lever to control mule deer populations. Regardless of seasons. Why is that? Success rates. They are much higher and more predictable in nearly every scenario.

So while I would concede it's not the only variable in an obviously multivariate equation. How can the most effective management tool (rifle tags) game agencies have, be dismissed entirely as a metric for comparison?

In my opinion, Wyomings success rates are evidence of the possibility that simply taking the season out of the rut is not going to cut mule deer success as much as it would take for desired results. Especially when you consider the population and tag number differences. Again, maybe I'm missing something in those numbers?

I could be wrong.

 

[El Jason]

Perhaps not, and perhaps you're right about MTs hypothetical success. But I would argue every single biologist who's involved in managing mule deer in the west will tell you rifle tags are the most effective lever to control mule deer populations. Regardless of seasons. Why is that? Success rates. They are much higher and more predictable in nearly every scenario.

Sure they are, but this doesn’t happen in a vacuum either.

I’ve hunted both mule deer and whitetail deer pre rut and during the rut. The difference isn’t even close.

 

[Tlrussell]

Success rate is not an accurate metric. Wyoming’s rate is achieved without general tag rut hunting. I believe Montana’s success rate would be dismal if the mouth breathers couldn’t shoot deer in late November.

I like breathing from my

 

[520 Road Sow]

Montana doesn't know what they got, they can't even conduct a successful harvest survey. So how can they measure success?

I don't believe Montana can handle 200,000 plus general deer tags. Whether 60 percent or 40 of them get filled I don't know. It could be 80, it would be interesting to see how many get filled from November 10 on.

I submit comments and letters every year. I can't imagine they're gonna really do much good but I'll continue to do it.

 

[brocksw]

Sure they are, but this doesn’t happen in a vacuum either.

I’ve hunted both mule deer and whitetail deer pre rut and ruing the rut. The difference isn’t even close.

I would agree. But how would you explain such small differences in success rates between MT and WY?

 

[520 Road Sow]

bust out some spreadsheets and graphs

@neffa3 and @wllm

 

[Irrelevant]

Perhaps not, and perhaps you're right about MTs hypothetical success. But I would argue every single biologist who's involved in managing mule deer in the west will tell you rifle tags are the most effective lever to control mule deer populations. Regardless of seasons. Why is that? Success rates. They are much higher and more predictable in nearly every scenario.

So while I would concede it's not the only variable in an obviously multivariate equation. How can the most effective management tool (rifle tags) game agencies have, be dismissed entirely as a metric for comparison?

In my opinion, Wyomings success rates are evidence of the possibility that simply taking the season out of the rut is not going to cut mule deer success as much as it would take for desired results. Especially when you consider the population and tag number differences. Again, maybe I'm missing something in those numbers?

I could be wrong.

I think you're missing the forest for the trees.

WY maintains such a high rate because they have phenomenal deer hunting, because they've limited rifle hunting, and restricted tags.

Based on your generalization you'd rather hunt deer with a rifle in Oct then deer with a bow in Nov? Are you freakin' kidding me? That FB post a few pages back wasn't wrong, they're so dumb they'll actually come to you!

 

[El Jason]

I would agree. But how would explain such small differences in success rates between MT and WY?

I have no idea. Without doing a deep dive into a lot of data it’s pretty meaningless to try and compare.

 

[Irrelevant]

I would agree. But how would explain such small differences in success rates between MT and WY?

WY has managed their deer so well that there's one behind every bush. Two behind the trees!

You're comparing a state that manages for there to be SOOO many deer that you can't hardly not kill one and a state that has to have seasons open 1/3 of the year and extend through the entire rut to achieve the same end. How in the hell do you view those as apples to apples?

 

[Moose 360]

I know I’ve done enough ranting about Montana mule deer but man it has gotten bad. Decided for some reason to take my rifle for a walk this morning through some amazing mule deer country because it was a nice cool morning with little wind. Not really looking for anything to shoot but I just love the country. If you could build your own prime mule deer habitat this would be it. I have hunted this spot for over 20 years and hiked it longer than that and know it like the back of my hand as I grew up just a few miles away from it. I laced them up super tight and still did not turn up a single mule deer. This country use to hold a ton of deer. The landscape has not changed in my lifetime and the amount of grazing done on it hasn’t changed. Something needs to be done as it’s sickening to see what eastern Montana mule deer have become.


Ok my rant is over. Here’s some pictures of the area
View attachment 245827
View attachment 245828

Idaho is no better

 

[Tlrussell]

All seriousness here. How many resident hunters do you think it would take to organize and challenge the fwp in a way that forces them to respond publicly?

 

[375H&H]

My apologies. I know I've engaged on this same topic before as well. I just really question every resident getting a rifle tag, regardless of season dates. To me that's the foundational question to all this. Without that change I really don't feel like MTs are gaining that much. Wyoming doesn't offer any rifle mule deer rut opportunity and their success rate overall isn't that far behind MT. Unless I'm missing something? But I'm suspicious (and I could be wrong) that MT simply has too many hunters to be handing everyone a rifle at any point during the fall. Change is going to be hard and I'd just hate to see MT fight for a change and have the results not be all they hoped.

Wyoming does offer rut hunting for mule deer, nearly all of it on special draw, but not all.

Wyoming does a good job with mule deer but they have one major flaw in their strategy: they don’t cut NR tag allocations when the deer numbers are down due to bad winter, over harvest, etc.

Take the region G or region Y (and many other regions) mule deer population. They got hammered by a bad winter in 2016-2017 and tag allocations for NR are basically the same even to this day.

They are “starting” to look closer at the Northern Bighorns herd with some doe collaring but it is data that they already had and never acted on. They are doing nothing to increase the age class of bucks which could have already been achieved over the last 6 years by limiting NR tag quotas.

They could also offer many more draw rut hunts for small numbers (5-10) of bucks to increase interest in the hunts and well being of mule deer. It would also spread out applications and pressure and have zero effect on the resource in a given area.

I have also seen the destruction of mule deer around Sheridan on private ranches. When you take 80-200 animals off small ranches for nearly a decade and then are too embarrassed to allow any hunters back because the game is gone, the game and fish should have already cut back on tags.

 

[Irrelevant]

First off, how the hell does one even compare anything to MT with such crappy record keeping.

Here is Region 4 mule deer. 33% success.


Here is a region of similar terrain/topography in WY, that took 1 pnt to draw (as a non resident) OTC R, these are just the buck tags 66.5%, 56.9%, 59.4%, 69.1%, 65.7%, and 34%. So outside of one unit, which only represented less than 1% of the total hunt effort (small size and almost all private land).

 

[520 Road Sow]

All seriousness here. How many resident hunters do you think it would take to organize and challenge the fwp in a way that forces them to respond publicly?

 

[Irrelevant]

Random ass WY unit I don't want to hunt. 1 pt draw. Gen season Oct 1-10


I'm not even cherry picking. Just randomly picked a unit close to MT.

 

[bigsky2]

Perhaps not, and perhaps you're right about MTs hypothetical success. But I would argue every single biologist who's involved in managing mule deer in the west will tell you rifle tags are the most effective lever to control mule deer populations. Regardless of seasons. Why is that? Success rates. They are much higher and more predictable in nearly every scenario.

So while I would concede it's not the only variable in an obviously multivariate equation. How can the most effective management tool (rifle tags) game agencies have, be dismissed entirely as a metric for comparison?

In my opinion, Wyomings success rates are evidence of the possibility that simply taking the season out of the rut is not going to cut mule deer success as much as it would take for desired results. Especially when you consider the population and tag number differences. Again, maybe I'm missing something in those numbers?

I could be wrong.

One thing I’ll add based on having lived in Wyoming for a couple years- most people in Wyoming don’t buy general deer tags, at least not where I lived. It could be a regional thing. Most of my friends that were hunters didn’t even go deer hunting unless they drew a limited permit. I’d guess the people going general deer hunting are more serious about it than a lot of the opportunist Thanksgiving week hunters in Montana.