Montana Mule Deer Mismanagement

[DFS]

Just got this in the mail this week and was impressed with the details of the survey. Good to see they're including antler measurements and proper aging techniques. Does anyone know if this is a new survey for deer permits? Ill probably call the bio and pick his brain and I can report back.
View attachment 416282

Well that’s something, good for them
for trying to collect data, sorry for your luck on the tag you drew.

 

[Edwin]

Well that’s something, good for them
for trying to collect data, sorry for your luck on the tag you drew.

I knew what I was getting into. Looking forward to it. Pulling the boat up next week to do some fishing and bow hunting.

 

[DFS]

I knew what I was getting into. Looking forward to it. Pulling the boat up next week to do some fishing and bow hunting.

I think there was a time when they gave out 15-25 tags there I know it spiked to 200 at some point and I think it is on its way back down as far as tag numbers go.

 

[8andcounting]

I knew what I was getting into. Looking forward to it. Pulling the boat up next week to do some fishing and bow hunting.

Sounds like a great experience no matter what you see for horns . It will be a great trip

 

[Edwin]

I think there was a time when they gave out 15-25 tags there I know it spiked to 200 at some point and I think it is on its way back down as far as tag numbers go.

Yeah they've had it capped at 100 tags the 3 previous seasons. I haven't hunted region 6 since 2023 which was pretty much rock bottom based on my observations. Hopefully its improved some since

 

[DFS]

Yeah they've had it capped at 100 tags the 3 previous seasons. I haven't hunted region 6 since 2023 which was pretty much rock bottom based on my observations. Hopefully its improved some since

Enjoy the trip, great that they are actually trying to collect data out of the unit.

 

[brockel]

Reading the last few pages reminds me why I don't hunt Montana anymore.

Spread the word

 

[Forkyfinder]

Just got this in the mail this week and was impressed with the details of the survey. Good to see they're including antler measurements and proper aging techniques. Does anyone know if this is a new survey for deer permits? Ill probably call the bio and pick his brain and I can report back.
View attachment 416282

This is excellent.

Everyone should send the guy an email and thank him.

Which is why putting an outsize dependence on NR to fund a majority of FWP’s budget is a flawed funding model. I think that all residents should have stake in paying for the management of their wildlife resources is the logical solution. Whether a resident hunts or not, his wildlife resources are a valuable asset to being a MT resident.

Maybe. That sounds nice - but i think you have a better chance of being govenor than that happening.

Mind telling me how/why the dramatic upshift in R6 wasnt noticed in all the meetings you had? Specifically - i find it shocking the trend with "hunter days" was apparently flatly missed. It obviously shows there needs to be regional caps and ultimate a cap on NR mule deer hunters thats below the statute. Theres nothing in statute that stops fwp from capping the whole state with 15k or 10k NR MD tags. We have spent a plethora of time talking about "selective harvest" and then totally discount the most selective group having the largest impact.

They make their voices heard. I have long criticized that MOGA report. The numbers might be optimistic but they aren't zero or even immaterial. The problem is figuring out the elasticity of the numbers in relation to NR permit changes. Either way, MT hunters made their bed by tying the vast majority of their funding to the NR. You want to change it, pay the bill.

Oh... yeah you got me. There numbers arent 0. The draw/economics from the weed stores/strip/casinos clubs in the border towns is probably higher though. Should i worship at the feet of those "economic drivers"?

Unlike the myth of small businesses rich of NR hunters - I'd bet those businesses would speak up and not be silent if some one were to try to regulate/cap non residents and theyd be quick to show some real data that supports it. Not Lamb shit.

 

[R.K.]

Should i worship at the feet of those "economic drivers"?

No, not since the politicians pulled a bait and switch and stole that funding and redirected it to the general fund.

 

[Irrelevant]

I can agree with most of this. I think the buck I shot in 97 is a good example.
First found this buck in the fall of 95. He was a sold 170 buck with kickers. At the time he was living on some difficult terrain for Eastern Mt public land that overlooked some hay meadow. He was following standard practice for an older eastern Montana buck in early October. Spend nearly all of the daylight hours in a nasty hole and travel down to the meadows after dark. Of course when the rut started he was down on the meadows well after daylight, but luck was on his side as the ranch then was in between outfitters and didn't receive much hunting pressure that fall. I found him again five miles back into public that winter, so I knew he made the season. The next year I only saw him one time. It was just before dark and he was starting down out of the hills for the meadows. He was a dandy, solid 180 with large hooking kickers and some small inlines. I figured the new outfitter would have him for sure, but again luck was on his side, or I should say mother nature was. That was the winter of 96/97. We got 15 inches of snow opening day and for the most part it stuck around. By the November arrived most of the does had pulled off the meadow back up into the public winter range. The snow also made accessing that public difficult at best and most of the people that would have been hunting there simply could not get there. In 97 I decided to go after him and started scouting him in July. I found him fairly quickly. He was miles back on the public with three, sometimes four other nice 150 to 160 class bucks. He wasn't as big, as old man winter had taken its toll, but he was still a fine example of a mule deer. I saw him 10 to 15 times that summer and by the end of September I had him fairly well figured out. Sometimes he would head to the meadow as dark approached and sometimes I think he just stayed in the hills. Could be he only went down when he was in need of water as water of the public was in short supply. As hunting season approach, he parted ways with the other bucks and got real hard to find, but even so I was feeling fairly confident on opening day. I was over optimist on my chances. I hunting him every chance I could. Think I spent five days in the first two weeks of the season. Not sure I saw a dozen deer during those five days on the public. There was at least two days were I saw zero deer. If I looked down on the private, I could see dozens, maybe even hundreds of does and small bucks, but I knew he was not down there. On the Saturday of the second week I was once again making the hour and a half walk into look for the buck. It was just getting light and I spotted one of the other nice bucks down just on the edge of the public checking out a couple of the does By mid day those were the only deer I had seen I decided to start sill hunting. I was working my way along a bench when he stood up 200 yards below me. It was all over but the pack out.
I have often told people that the key to killing a big buck is scout hard and hunt him hard the first part of the season. If you do this you can be selective, but there is a catch. You need to spend countless hours of scouting time, It is best if you know the place you are hunting better than the back of your hand and even with all that advanced preparation you had better be prepared for a lot of slow days in the field. Most of the orange army simply does not have the time or discipline to be selective during Oct. The rut is the great equalizer. During the rut when bucks are with the does and much easier to find, even the most ill prepared in the orange army can afford to be selective with out much fear of eating their tag.
This hunt also illustrates the access reason we need to change the season. By the end of Nov the outfitter that leased the near by hay meadows had taken all of the other nice bucks down on the private. When those bucks were back on the public during Oct, the outfitter had zero shot at them. For starters, most of his clients were not physically capable of effectively hunting on the public. Second, it is likely that even the clients that could physically hunt the public, did not have the mental toughness to go for days with out seeing more than a handful of deer. Last but not least, the outfitter did not have the hunting lease on that public. Even if he did see a buck on the public he could not hunt him. (wouldn't have stopped that outfitter). By holding the season during Nov, we as the public transferred thousands of dollars in value from the public to the outfitter and landowner. We are not using economics to our advantage.

I love reading your stories.

I've never had the commitment to pursue a single buck (or bull) to that level. I've always been too scattered, too flaky, too lazy.

 

[SAJ-99]

Oh... yeah you got me. There numbers arent 0. The draw/economics from the weed stores/strip/casinos clubs in the border towns is probably higher though. Should i worship at the feet of those "economic drivers"?

You are yelling at the wrong people. NRs don't have a say in the matter. Yell at the residents who cry about a $2 increase in tag prices, the "scenery tax", or not being able to get the 5th B tag and fill the freezer. IT seems everyone in the state is crying about something. You just have to cry to the right people I guess.

 

[Forkyfinder]

You are yelling at the wrong people. NRs don't have a say in the matter. Yell at the residents who cry about a $2 increase in tag prices, the "scenery tax", or not being able to get the 5th B tag and fill the freezer. IT seems everyone in the state is crying about something. You just have to cry to the right people I guess.

Thats a bunch of anti government facebook crap.

We'll likely never know - the dependancy is attractive for moga, why fix the problem if the special interest group that sucks up to you benefits?

Its really pretty simple. Reduce the cap on NR hunters, charge them more (this thread makes me feel its clearly too cheap), and then charge R more too. Promise itll happen eventually. Has every other state.

 

[8andcounting]

You are yelling at the wrong people. NRs don't have a say in the matter. Yell at the residents who cry about a $2 increase in tag prices, the "scenery tax", or not being able to get the 5th B tag and fill the freezer. IT seems everyone in the state is crying about something. You just have to cry to the right people I guess.

The head of one of the Montana fb pages has been bitching since regs came out that now he can only shoot 3 deer . Then his next 20 posts are about how the NR kill everything

 

[8andcounting]

Thats a bunch of anti government facebook crap.

We'll likely never know - the dependancy is attractive for moga, why fix the problem if the special interest group that sucks up to you benefits?

It’s really pretty simple. Reduce the cap on NR hunters, charge them more (this thread makes me feel it’s clearly too cheap), and then charge R more too. Promise itll happen eventually. Has every other state.

let me know how this goes for you .

 

[SAJ-99]

Thats a bunch of anti government facebook crap.

Yeah. It's Montana. And Idaho. And Wyoming. Every state has it, just the topic changes. Occasionally a Russian or Chinese Bot jumps into to stir the embers, but generally the population eats it up. Anyone that thinks it is reasonable to increase Resident fees, like yourself (or maybe not who knows at this point), won't dare run for office on that view.

 

[El Jason]

Its really pretty simple. Reduce the cap on NR hunters, charge them more (this thread makes me feel its clearly too cheap), and then charge R more too. Promise itll happen eventually. Has every other state.

What’s holding you back? Grab your clipboards and go get those initiatives rolling.

 

[Forkyfinder]

Yeah. It's Montana. And Idaho. And Wyoming. Every state has it, just the topic changes. Occasionally a Russian or Chinese Bot jumps into to stir the embers, but generally the population eats it up. Anyone that thinks it is reasonable to increase Resident fees, like yourself (or maybe not who knows at this point), won't dare run for office on that view.

I think the part that you missed is - if NR tag allocations are cut or at the very least a lot of those tags goto "private land only" - more R than you think would support it.

 

[Treeshark]

if NR tag allocations are cut or at the very least a lot of those tags goto "private land only" - more R than you think would support it.

I’m not sure that is accurate, considering the vast majority don’t hunt.

Nonresident DIY hunters bring hundreds of millions of dollars of outside money into Montana. That money supports Montana businesses and jobs, while the substantially higher license fees paid by nonresidents help fund wildlife management, enforcement, habitat and public hunting access that Montana residents also use.

For the non hunting resident (which again, is the vast majority of residents), that is a great deal.

 

[SAJ-99]

I think the part that you missed is - if NR tag allocations are cut or at the very least a lot of those tags goto "private land only" - more R than you think would support it.

Go for it. I’m sure Rs would love it. I don’t think it is legal.

 

[Treeshark]

I’m sure Rs would love it.

You think?

NRs bring roughly $200 per resident. Is it fair to ask all of them to give some of that up to minimally improve the hobby of a small minority of residents?