Montana Mule Deer Mismanagement

[WanderWoman]

More big deer were taken in the first week than in the last three weeks combined. The vast majority of bucks taken in the first week were by people that had seen the buck earlier and hunted him hard. Bucks taken the last three week more often than not involved a lot of luck.

This is why I don’t think cutting out rut hunting, now, by itself, is going to solve everything, because the ‘race to get him before someone else does’ (aided by technology and information sharing) is more prevalent today. This point also contradicts the idea of rut hunting allowing for so much selectivity. I thought the argument yesterday was that pre-rut hunting is by default, more random, and rut hunting is why there are fewer nice bucks than there should be.

Both things could happen to a varying degree, enough to make everything very nuanced and complex to solve, but neither is the direct cause of everything wrong with mule deer. Perhaps some of this was truer back then as opposed to today, and it’s collectively difficult to adapt to how fast things are changing, now, too.

We are not going to solve the access issue or slow the growth of commercialization if we only stick with biology. Commercialization is and economic issue and will be solved by using economics to our advantage.

100%. But FWP also went through two directors who were adamant that biologists ignore social (to include economic) aspects and only focus on biology. (This is more in context with elk, but what is buck quality if not a social factor, when as long as the b:d ratio stays above a certain threshold, recruitment is not affected by it?)

But even that is an impossible order because human behavior affects animal behavior which affects distribution and thus their… biology. I don’t see that as changed, yet. There are still some folks who tell FWP to stay away from anything related to social factors, that that’s all up to the commission. And we see how well that’s working… (archery antelope is a great example of that.. “we need to do something about all this hunter pressure” as they up the quota…)

 

[Forkyfinder]

@antlerradar What do you say about the commercialization of cow elk? Or elk in general? Wouldnt you agree that its worse than mule deer - see recent attempts to blos up tag qtys, lawsuits, nr lo permits, and on and on.

A cow elk hunt is 3k at a lot of places and requires no hope of drawing, no preference points, and no hope or looking for a big one that probably isnt around. Better to sell than a mule deer hunt if you ask me.

Available Hunts/Now Booking – Birch Creek Guide Service

Adding an additional season for cow elk population "management" - a week of hot hunting pressure on public land before people can shoot elk, and making archery start even earlier seems to excaberate those problems and the problems that exist for real ag operators that arent outfitting or if they are it isnt the primary function of the land.

A 2 week mule deer season (ending before veterans day, i agree @rogerthat - thats hot time) with no additional limited entry seems like it would solve as many problems without creating more if rut harvest is too selective and would functionally result in the same end date as rev 3.

 

[antlerradar]

@antlerradar What do you say about the commercialization of cow elk? Or elk in general? Wouldnt you agree that its worse than mule deer - see recent attempts to blos up tag qtys, lawsuits, nr lo permits, and on and on.

A cow elk hunt is 3k at a lot of places and requires no hope of drawing, no preference points, and no hope or looking for a big one that probably isnt around. Better to sell than a mule deer hunt if you ask me.

Available Hunts/Now Booking – Birch Creek Guide Service

Adding an additional season for cow elk population "management" - a week of hot hunting pressure on public land before people can shoot elk, and making archery start even earlier seems to excaberate those problems and the problems that exist for real ag operators that arent outfitting or if they are it isnt the primary function of the land.

A 2 week mule deer season (ending before veterans day, i agree @rogerthat - thats hot time) with no additional limited entry seems like it would solve as many problems without creating more if rut harvest is too selective and would functionally result in the same end date as rev 3.

In Eastern Montana the driving force behind commercialization is Mule deer. Whitetails are next and pronghorn and elk are still well back. Elk are however are making a move, but as long as bull tags stay relatively hard to get, they are never going to catch mule deer. In Western Montana I am sure elk are the undisputed king. None of the others are even close.
As for 3,000 dollar cow hunts, That is some very expensive elk meat when you add in gas and processing. I wonder just how many of those high priced elk hunts are actually selling. Not many is my bet. Not going to sell many 3k hunts when others are giving them away for free and with a little effort and research you can find those places. Back when Cole Benton had the OW leased, he was taking youth hunters on free cow hunts during the general season. I doubt that is happening now that the OW has sold to a wealthy NR for hunting. When Larson had Diamond Cross leased they took in quite a few DIY cow hunters during the shoulder season. They didn't advertise it, but I think most of the people that asked got on. Again, this opportunity is likely coming to an end with the new owners. I can think of several other quality ranches where if a person was to build up a little trust, they are getting to go cow hunting for free. Of coarse I am not going to be giving out names on the net. I would bet that that 3k price tag on cows is more of a, I don't actually want to deal with cow hunters price than it is a money maker. I could be wrong, maybe there are lots of hunters willing to pay big money for a cow, but I doubt it.

 

[Forkyfinder]

In Eastern Montana the driving force behind commercialization is Mule deer. Whitetails are next and pronghorn and elk are still well back. Elk are however are making a move, but as long as bull tags stay relatively hard to get, they are never going to catch mule deer. In Western Montana I am sure elk are the undisputed king. None of the others are even close.
As for 3,000 dollar cow hunts, That is some very expensive elk meat when you add in gas and processing. I wonder just how many of those high priced elk hunts are actually selling. Not many is my bet. Not going to sell many 3k hunts when others are giving them away for free and with a little effort and research you can find those places. Back when Cole Benton had the OW leased, he was taking youth hunters on free cow hunts during the general season. I doubt that is happening now that the OW has sold to a wealthy NR for hunting. When Larson had Diamond Cross lease they took in quite a few DIY cow hunters during the shoulder season. They didn't advertise it, but I think most of the people that asked got on. Again, this opportunity is likely coming to an end with the new owners. I can think of several other quality ranches where if a person was to build up a little trust, they are getting to go cow hunting for free. Of coarse I am not going to be giving out names on the net. I would bet that that 3k price tag on cows is more of a, I don't want to deal with cow hunters price than it is money maker. I could be wrong, maybe there are lots of hunters willing to pay big money for a cow, but I doubt it.

Cow Elk Hunts in Montana | RS Outfitters

Shoulder season guided cow elk hunts north of Billings, Montana, with RSO Outfitters. Over-the-counter cow tags are available in District 005-00.

rsooutfitters.com

Cow Elk Hunting - Sherwood Outiftting

sherwoodmontanaoutfitting.com

Montana - Cow Elk Hunt on a 50,000 Acre Private Ranch

Montana - Cow Elk Hunt on a 50,000 Acre Private Ranch that includes meals, lodging and expert guides in Big Sky Country.

shoshoneadventures.com

Montana Trophy Outfitters

Over-the-counter cow elk hunts on private leased ground holding a large herd. Run from the main lodge, up to six hunters at a time.

mttrophy.com

I think you are out of touch with the market - theres a lot of them selling. And thats true for a lot more of the state than R7. Thats about 3 mins on google.


I get the extra cow elk season, longer hunting season, and opportunity to shift from 5 to 8 weeks of deer hunting is good for MOGA. I just dont think it is for everyone else.

Ill ask again - what would be so wrong with making MD season state wide last two weeks? Or at least in r5,6 and 7?

 

[El Jason]

Back when Cole Benton had the OW leased, he was taking youth hunters on free cow hunts during the general season.

He let me hunt for free too. I had a fantastic elk hunt down there. Great guy.

@rogerthat I’ve killed my biggest deer, both mule deer and whitetail between Halloween and Veterans Day.

 

[Point Creep]

@rogerthat I’ve killed my biggest deer, both mule deer and whitetail between Halloween and Veterans Day.

Me too - and they are rutting that late.

 

[brockel]

Cow Elk Hunts in Montana | RS Outfitters

Shoulder season guided cow elk hunts north of Billings, Montana, with RSO Outfitters. Over-the-counter cow tags are available in District 005-00.

rsooutfitters.com

Cow Elk Hunting - Sherwood Outiftting

sherwoodmontanaoutfitting.com

Montana - Cow Elk Hunt on a 50,000 Acre Private Ranch

Montana - Cow Elk Hunt on a 50,000 Acre Private Ranch that includes meals, lodging and expert guides in Big Sky Country.

shoshoneadventures.com

Montana Trophy Outfitters

Over-the-counter cow elk hunts on private leased ground holding a large herd. Run from the main lodge, up to six hunters at a time.

mttrophy.com

I think you are out of touch with the market - theres a lot of them selling. And thats true for a lot more of the state than R7. Thats about 3 mins on google.


I get the extra cow elk season, longer hunting season, and opportunity to shift from 5 to 8 weeks of deer hunting is good for MOGA. I just dont think it is for everyone else.

Ill ask again - what would be so wrong with making MD season state wide last two weeks? Or at least in r5,6 and 7?

Damn that’s a half a beef pricing

 

[MTTW]

I have never killed a good buck in sw Mt before Veterans day but I suspect that is because they have to get dumbed down some before I can kill them. I have known where a few were before then but couldn't match wits with them in the timber.

 

[DFS]

Biggest mule deer in Montana was the day before Thanksgiving but that was at least 26 years ago if not longer.
Things have sure changed since then. There was another local and me that hunted that area on the weekends, very seldom was there anybody else. Now it gets hunted every day of season by locals western Montanans and nonresidents.

 

[8andcounting]

As for 3,000 dollar cow hunts, That is some very expensive elk meat when you add in gas and processing. I wonder just how many of those high priced elk hunts are actually selling. Not many is my bet.

I would bet that that 3k price tag on cows is more of a, I don't actually want to deal with cow hunters price than it is a money maker. I could be wrong, maybe there are lots of hunters willing to pay big money for a cow, but I doubt it.

You’re spot on most of the time but completely out of touch on these 2 comments respectively,They are a huge seller and lots of times sell out quickly . It’s gotten to be a big thing .

 

[Forkyfinder]

You’re spot on most of the time but completely out of touch on these 2 comments respectively,They are a huge seller and lots of times sell out quickly . It’s gotten to be a big thing .

250% increase in cow elk b tag sales to NR in the last 10 years.

Dont know how many outfitted mule deer hunts there are, but id wager its comparable.

 

[bigsky2]

I know this is a mule deer thread but pressure from OTC cow elk hunting is a pretty big issue in region 4.

 

[cgasner1]

I know this is a mule deer thread but pressure from OTC cow elk hunting is a pretty big issue in region 4.

Please move this comment over to the bird hunting thread

 

[WanderWoman]

I know this is a mule deer thread but pressure from OTC cow elk hunting is a pretty big issue in region 4.

And LE archery that isn’t functionally “limited”

 

[bigsky2]

And LE archery that isn’t functionally “limited”

Don’t get me started on that.

 

[Forkyfinder]

And LE archery that isn’t functionally “limited”

Don’t get me started on that.

Why is that? Noticing a potential parallel.

 

[bigsky2]

Why is that? Noticing a potential parallel.

Those permit numbers were proposed by your ex-commissioner, the same one that decided we should hand out archery antelope permits like they’re candy. I believe the reason they’ve remained unchanged is because of outfitters that want those numbers high, as well as locals and some individuals on the MBA board that throw a fit anytime there’s talk of reducing them. I haven’t heard it straight from outfitters but the individuals that have access to private are the most vocal opponents anytime there’s talk of dialing those permits back. They get the benefit of capitalizing on the inflated elk numbers without having to deal with the hoards of permit holders on the limited public access in those districts.

 

[WanderWoman]

Those permit numbers were proposed by your ex-commissioner, the same one that decided we should hand out archery antelope permits like they’re candy. I believe the reason they’ve remained unchanged is because of outfitters that want those numbers high, as well as locals and some individuals on the MBA board that throw a fit anytime there’s talk of reducing them. I haven’t heard it straight from outfitters but the individuals that have access to private are the most vocal opponents anytime there’s talk of dialing those permits back. They get the benefit of capitalizing on the inflated elk numbers without having to deal with the hoards of permit holders on the limited public access in those districts.

When the 900-20 was dismantled in 2022, the FW commission added to the number of new permits the regions recommended, wanting to ensure demand at the time was met (heaven forbid someone doesn’t draw a limited permit every year, after all what does “limited entry” even mean?). That same year, they also removed quota ranges from buck and bull permits, thereby removing any possibility of the regions being able to make reasonable adjustments without first going through the commission.

Per previous directors not allowing biologists to adjust anything deemed “social,” regions have not been able to respond to increased hunter pressure in some of these districts. So if a biologist wants to touch something related to bucks and bulls, they are effectively hamstrung. Unless it’s an increase…

I’m particularly familiar with the [redacted] elk permit valid south of Lewistown, and at its current quota, even 100% of NR who apply for it draw. And yet FWP cannot reduce it, as Heaven forbid, again, someone isn’t guaranteed that LE permit, every year. I am almost certain archery harvest exceeds rifle harvest in many of those HDs. How’s that for a thread derailing..

Well, if it’s so hard to adjust something as benign as an archery quota, overhauling mule deer seasons seems insurmountable.

 

[DFS]

I think it would have to start very basic region 6 and 7 have the nonresident harvest data that shows harvest needs to be cut in half to get more in line with the other regions, when that doesn’t work residents need to be forced to pick a region. When that doesn’t work it goes limited entry like antelope where way to many tags are issued. When that doesn’t work we maybe shift the season a bit back into October. If I live to be 200 years old I can see it happening in my lifetime.

 

[MTTW]

I think it would have to start very basic region 6 and 7 have the nonresident harvest data that shows harvest needs to be cut in half to get more in line with the other regions, when that doesn’t work residents need to be forced to pick a region. When that doesn’t work it goes limited entry like antelope where way to many tags are issued. When that doesn’t work we maybe shift the season a bit back into October. If I live to be 200 years old I can see it happening in my lifetime.

I can't imagine there being huntable public land in 150 years, so good luck.

I agree with the rest of your post.