Montana Mule Deer Mismanagement

[cgasner1]

I think a lot of the angst is the sheer amount of hunters and animals that we are pulling off the landscape and when we are doing it. I have literally bounced a rock off of a young 4 point that would not leave the side of the road on public. Couple that with never or very rarely seeing a good buck where there used to be good bucks. Roger has the age data the best bucks are 3.5 with the occasional 4.5 and the older bucks are scuz heads that nobody wants to shoot. Montanas season structure makes it nearly impossible for a buck with good genetics to live past 3.5 or 4.5 without very protected private land that the majority of hunters will never experience.

Awhile back some guys were complaining about how Wyoming suffered a hard winter a couple years ago ago and their numbers are down. The structure they have makes it harder to kill a mature deer I wonder how much worse their herds would have been in if they hunted the same structure we do

 

[DFS]

I will add when FWP touts that thing have never been better it is especially infuriating to the people that have seen different.

 

[El Jason]

Montanas season structure makes it nearly impossible for a buck with good genetics to live past 3.5 or 4.5 without very protected private land that the majority of hunters will never experience.

The last time I hunted in Montana, I killed a whitetail buck the second day of my hunt. It was the week before thanksgiving and I had five days to hunt.

The next day I was looking for a bull. This little 20” 4x4 mule deer buck was so love struck dumb I could have killed him numerous times that morning. He had the self preservation instinct of a drunk 18 year old at his first sorority party.

 

[WanderWoman]

I will add when FWP touts that thing have never been better it is especially infuriating to the people that have seen different.

Who is saying that now? Or is this in reference to when one(?) person said it like 4 years ago?

 

[brockel]

Who is saying that now? Or is this in reference to when one(?) person said it like 4 years ago?

Watch FWP Facebook videos they’ve put out. Or any of their mule deer meetings they’ve had over the last couple years. The PowerPoint they presented in multiple areas saying what we are seeing in field isn’t actually true

 

[8andcounting]

Who is saying that now? Or is this in reference to when one(?) person said it like 4 years ago?

The fwp is … been all over fb last few weeks

 

[Forkyfinder]

Who is saying that now? Or is this in reference to when one(?) person said it like 4 years ago?

Watch FWP Facebook videos they’ve put out. Or any of their mule deer meetings they’ve had over the last couple years. The PowerPoint they presented in multiple areas saying what we are seeing in field isn’t actually true

@WanderWoman

Likely in reference to this:

1.1K views · 18 reactions | Part 4 of 5 - Montana Mule Deer Myths and Misconceptions Are mule deer populations affected by one single factor? Do predators, hunting, weather, or habitat alone tell the whole story? Let’s take it one myth at a tim

Part 4 of 5 - Montana Mule Deer Myths and Misconceptions Are mule deer populations affected by one single factor? Do predators, hunting, weather, or habitat alone tell the whole story? Let’s...

www.facebook.com

 

[WanderWoman]

The fwp is … been all over fb last few weeks

They said, “things have never been better,” and they’re referring to the whole state?

 

[8andcounting]

Go to the fwp fb page and scroll to August 17 there’s about 4-5 parts they put out that day about mule deer most of it bragging how they’ve improved things

 

[8andcounting]

They said, “things have never been better,” and they’re referring to the whole state?

I never said that but just scroll fwp fb page on aug 17

 

[WanderWoman]

@WanderWoman

Likely in reference to this:

1.1K views · 18 reactions | Part 4 of 5 - Montana Mule Deer Myths and Misconceptions Are mule deer populations affected by one single factor? Do predators, hunting, weather, or habitat alone tell the whole story? Let’s take it one myth at a tim

Part 4 of 5 - Montana Mule Deer Myths and Misconceptions Are mule deer populations affected by one single factor? Do predators, hunting, weather, or habitat alone tell the whole story? Let’s...

www.facebook.com

I did not hear “things have never been better” in that video clip. I heard that rut hunting doesn’t affect recruitment (it doesn’t), I heard that deer populations are ok if the ratio is above 10:100, and (assuming in relation to that ratio) FWP says the buck or deer population is healthy in that respect. That’s a far cry from “things have never been better.”

 

[8andcounting]

I did not hear “things have never been better” in that video clip. I heard that rut hunting doesn’t affect recruitment (it doesn’t), I heard that deer populations are ok if the ratio is above 10:100, and (assuming in relation to that ratio) FWP says the buck or deer population is healthy in that respect. That’s a far cry from “things have never been better.”

Basically from what I watched and read , they are saying , things are looking up , come out to Montana and kill some deer . Am I wrong ?

 

[Forkyfinder]

I did not hear “things have never been better” in that video clip. I heard that rut hunting doesn’t affect recruitment (it doesn’t), I heard that deer populations are ok if the ratio is above 10:100, and (assuming in relation to that ratio) FWP says the buck or deer population is healthy in that respect. That’s a far cry from “things have never been better.”

Oh im aware. I think "the sky isnt falling" will be receieved that way by some no matter what.

 

[brockel]

I did not hear “things have never been better” in that video clip. I heard that rut hunting doesn’t affect recruitment (it doesn’t), I heard that deer populations are ok if the ratio is above 10:100, and (assuming in relation to that ratio) FWP says the buck or deer population is healthy in that respect. That’s a far cry from “things have never been better.”

I believe “we are in the glory years” was said a few times during their power point presentation

 

[DFS]

I did not hear “things have never been better” in that video clip. I heard that rut hunting doesn’t affect recruitment (it doesn’t), I heard that deer populations are ok if the ratio is above 10:100, and (assuming in relation to that ratio) FWP says the buck or deer population is healthy in that respect. That’s a far cry from “things have never been better.”

I started following closer after the bad winters of 2010-2011 could be off on those exact dates. I will never forget John Ensign saying we aren’t into knee jerk reactions when people asked him to move forward conservatively. Since then going to regional meetings the amount of gas lighting the local office has done has led me to lack of trust of the department. Recently they are claiming antelope numbers are back to pre 2009 levels and we can issue the tags. Anybody that pays attention can see the move that fwp is going to take with mule deer and it’s none. They have a strange way of painting a rosy picture on things when that is not reality. They are into knee jerk reactions but it’s only increasing tags and not taking the boot off the throat.

 

[WanderWoman]

I’m curious why you don’t think our season structure ie rut hunting drives age structure and what is left on the landscape? Are you seeing large older age class bucks make it to winter range? For 15 years, I have collected and sent in hunter harvested deer to Masons lab for age analysis. It backs up what @antlerradar has been saying about harvesting the young up and comers while passing for later years the bucks that don’t express nice antlers ie the old bucks aren’t the ones with nice antlers. I think a lot of the frustration you see in this thread with the season structure can be explained by that fact right there for better or for worse or right or wrong since I know when we start talking antlers everyone gets all hackled up but I think it’s worth understanding frustration points even if they are misplaced biologically speaking

I don’t think I ever said that hunting during the rut isn’t important. I do think that if we ended rut hunting and did nothing else, there are still too many other variables acting on deer and deer hunting such that we wouldn’t notice a huge difference. Montana gets a bad rap. Montana needs to make some changes. Not denying any of that. But with the road we’re on, the elk issues, the other things driving deer populations, it’s a lot harder than rut hunting or only season structure. Not an excuse to do nothing by any means, but expectations should probably be tempered..

Are the HDs we currently have with a 3-week season indicating that all is well and good? Are the numbers of bucks, 4-point bucks, or older bucks significantly better?

Today’s technology still means the most sought-after bucks, however few they are, are more vulnerable even outside the rut. Modern hunting and modern demand and modern equipment are going still going to mean we’re better than killing deer than we were 30 years ago, rut or not. I wish MT would be like ID in that respect and put a committee together to start getting ahead of that stuff.

If someone had access to tooth age data (with harvest date) and check station antler measurements, it would be an interesting exercise to look at them both in terms of week of harvest. Maybe that’s been discussed here already. Ages of bucks taken 1st three weeks vs last 2, whatever antler data is collected, numbers of bucks coming through, all by week to get at that picture. May or may not provide some good insight into all that. May be buried somewhere in this forum already. If rut hunting was that impactful, and allowed for that much selectivity, ages and/or antler size would definitely be skewed to the last 2 weeks. Harvest numbers possibly as well. A long time ago I looked at harvest rates for some R4 HDs I hunt, and it was pretty evenly spread 20% of the deer taken each week of the 5-week season, and that surprised me at the time. That data was late 90s/early 2000s though.

 

[rogerthat]

I don’t think I ever said that hunting during the rut isn’t important. I do think that if we ended rut hunting and did nothing else, there are still too many other variables acting on deer and deer hunting such that we wouldn’t notice a huge difference. Montana gets a bad rap. Montana needs to make some changes. Not denying any of that. But with the road we’re on, the elk issues, the other things driving deer populations, it’s a lot harder than rut hunting or only season structure. Not an excuse to do nothing by any means, but expectations should probably be tempered..

Are the HDs we currently have with a 3-week season indicating that all is well and good? Are the numbers of bucks, 4-point bucks, or older bucks significantly better?

Today’s technology still means the most sought-after bucks, however few they are, are more vulnerable even outside the rut. Modern hunting and modern demand and modern equipment are going still going to mean we’re better than killing deer than we were 30 years ago, rut or not. I wish MT would be like ID in that respect and put a committee together to start getting ahead of that stuff.

If someone had access to tooth age data (with harvest date) and check station antler measurements, it would be an interesting exercise to look at them both in terms of week of harvest. Maybe that’s been discussed here already. Ages of bucks taken 1st three weeks vs last 2, whatever antler data is collected, numbers of bucks coming through, all by week to get at that picture. May or may not provide some good insight into all that. May be buried somewhere in this forum already. If rut hunting was that impactful, and allowed for that much selectivity, ages and/or antler size would definitely be skewed to the last 2 weeks. Harvest numbers possibly as well. A long time ago I looked at harvest rates for some R4 HDs I hunt, and it was pretty evenly spread 20% of the deer taken each week of the 5-week season, and that surprised me at the time. That data was late 90s/early 2000s though.

Thanks for the reply. I agree with a lot of your points. So your saying the last two weeks because heavier rut? This is anecdotal and keep in my mind I pretty much only hunt public land, but my hunting experience has been that 15-20 years ago in Montana you would still see some good muley bucks those last two weeks. Lately your too late for the point Art touched on which is the bucks often go to private but also that many of the better antlered bucks(which are 3 and 4 years old in Montana) have been shot. Veterans Day is kind of a bullseye for shooting big bucks in my experience across a couple states that I have hunted. Interested to hear others experiences.

 

[rogerthat]

One other point I would make from my anecdotal hunting experience to consider, is how sensitive rut hunting is on the better antlered mule deer. I got to see that in real time in a Colorado unit that was basically a leftover for third season that I would hunt. When those dates got pushed back, finding a good buck became almost an impossible task after the first year vs doable if you hunted hard and smart before the later dates. I think that was only moving the season 5-6 days back. It made quite a difference in buck quality to the point I quit going. Totally get that buck quality isn’t Montanas objective and is subjective. I’m at peace with that and realize Montanas season structure will never change which is fine by me.

 

[Point Creep]

I think I can help.

View attachment 415608

These 3 bucks are all the same age and are rutting does which one are you shooting.

Now on your October hunt you only see one of the 3 bucks so you shoot the one you see. Which hunt did you get to be more selective on.

If you do that year after year you are left with cwd carrying old two points. That could potentially get shot in October if things were different.

I love a good white board knowledge share! Awesome stuff and like @antlerradar - total reality of MT deer hunters !