Montana General Season Structure Proposal

[SAJ-99]

It is, intellectually lazy, to say that this isnt the major contributing factor to the problem.

I thought this was about helping the resource, not helping hunters kill the resource more easily. I generally agree with your thought, just don't think "hunter effort" is useful to the discussion. It reframes the problem back to a scarcity mindset that seems too common these days in a variety of areas. The bottom line is the reselling of tags isn't just an increased pressure problem. It is now a funding problem.

 

[cgasner1]

Its not intellectually lazy - theres an uptick in the problem (excess pressure) related to resale of the NR tags.

It is, intellectually lazy, to say that this isnt the major contributing factor to the problem.

Resident hunters are getting blamed for more pressure too, in the form of "increased days".... but i dont think its crazy to say these days came from the increase in required effort because of the dramatic burst of NR tags in the form of reselling.

Something needs done both ways - but not reselling tags alone would get us entirely back to where it was 10 years ago...

The crappy hunting from decline has created more pressure on the wildlife because people are on the landscape more trying to fill the tag. Then by fillings said tag it’s creates worse hunting so people have to apply more pressure the following year. It’s a snowball effect. Throw in a lot of other factors with technology and such things it’s a tough time to be an animal. I still think until we can fix the mentality of the animal numbers are down so I was happy to kill this the problem will continue to grow.

 

[SAJ-99]

we can fix the mentality of the animal numbers are down so I was happy to kill this the problem will continue to grow

This is a point I was thinking about. The idea of "well, it was the last day so I killed the first thing that walked by". Even if we haven't done it, I think we have all heard it at some point. I think it is easy to understand when you charge $700 for the permit. Crazy idea...could you change to a structure more of a "take" fee? Probably couldn't collect it after the fact, but FWP could charge $800 for the tag and if the hunter didn't shoot something give him/her a $200 credit on the account. Could be similar for residents - pay $100 and return the unused tag after the season and get $75 back, but I'm sure they would hate it.

I'm making numbers up, of course, but you get the idea. Maybe it would save a few forkies. I can't think of way to change that behavior and any changes in structure are hard to make money-neutral.

 

[Ben Lamb]

This is a point I was thinking about. The idea of "well, it was the last day so I killed the first thing that walked by". Even if we haven't done it, I think we have all heard it at some point. I think it is easy to understand when you charge $700 for the permit. Crazy idea...could you change to a structure more of a "take" fee? Probably couldn't collect it after the fact, but FWP could charge $800 for the tag and if the hunter didn't shoot something give him/her a $200 credit on the account. Could be similar for residents - pay $100 and return the unused tag after the season and get $75 back, but I'm sure they would hate it.

I'm making numbers up, of course, but you get the idea. Maybe it would save a few forkies. I can't think of way to change that behavior and any changes in structure are hard to make money-neutral.

I've been thinking on this sentiment.

The tag you are issued is not a guarantee of anything other than you have a gov't sponsored opportunity to try and kill an animal. The money spent on a tag, while substantial, should be looked upon similarly to your purchase of a lift ticket at a skihill, or your entrance fee into an amusement park. Nothing is guaranteed in hunting except that nothing is guaranteed. I don't get a refund when my vacation in Mexico gets rained out, or if I go to a skihill and a warm spell craters the snow. It should be the same with hunting - the end goal for most NR's shouldn't be filling the tag, but enjoying the hunt. 99% of NR hunters are recreationalists first, meat hunters second. Own that and embrace tag soup.

 

[Forkyfinder]

I thought this was about helping the resource, not helping hunters kill the resource more easily. I generally agree with your thought, just don't think "hunter effort" is useful to the discussion. It reframes the problem back to a scarcity mindset that seems too common these days in a variety of areas. The bottom line is the reselling of tags isn't just an increased pressure problem. It is now a funding problem.

Increase fees to both R and NR fees and stop reselling NR tags. Resource/funding can be balanced there.

Its a fact is that MT gives out too many tags. R and NR. Also a fact that NR hunters are more likely to harvest.

The easy answer and the best one can be the same.

 

[SAJ-99]

I've been thinking on this sentiment.

The tag you are issued is not a guarantee of anything other than you have a gov't sponsored opportunity to try and kill an animal. The money spent on a tag, while substantial, should be looked upon similarly to your purchase of a lift ticket at a skihill, or your entrance fee into an amusement park. Nothing is guaranteed in hunting except that nothing is guaranteed. I don't get a refund when my vacation in Mexico gets rained out, or if I go to a skihill and a warm spell craters the snow. It should be the same with hunting - the end goal for most NR's shouldn't be filling the tag, but enjoying the hunt. 99% of NR hunters are recreationalists first, meat hunters second. Own that and embrace tag soup.

Oh you and optimism of the human race. I'm not sure how people "should look upon" something is an adequate argument to kill it (sure, it's dead IRL, but this is the internet). While I agree with the general view, people don't think that way. This is why economics is called the Dismal Science. Logic has no place here. People don't understand that the tag is a sunk cost, which is why they shoot things on the last day or last moment. Separate out the cost of the "opportunity" and the "success" and maybe you can change actions? A lot of Africa hunts have trophy fees for each animal.

99% of people lie 85% of the time on surveys.

 

[Elk247]

Has anyone proposed to keep the season the same way that always been, but come Nov1 limit it to 4 points on one side for mule deer and three points on main beam for whitetail.

So if you just want to fill a tag you can in October. Then during the rut it protects the smaller bucks.

 

[antlerradar]

Has anyone proposed to keep the season the same way that always been, but come Nov1 limit it to 4 points on one side for mule deer and three points on main beam for whitetail.

So if you just want to fill a tag you can in October. Then during the rut it protects the smaller bucks.

This proposal is not about bigger deer, however if you want to grow bigger deer you need to protect the nice bucks not the smaller bucks.

 

[Shed God]

Well it should be about a healthy population. Only healthy population I c Is on private. Fwp can't manage why do we pay them too

 

[sclancy27]

Well it should be about a healthy population. Only healthy population I c Is on private. Fwp can't manage why do we pay them too

Well you pay them with your licenses so if you want to stop paying them stop buying licenses.

 

[huntin24/7]

Well it should be about a healthy population. Only healthy population I c Is on private. Fwp can't manage why do we pay them too

I think there are a lot of good biologists in our state. I don’t think their data or recommendations get a lot of consideration when the legislature only cares about $ from license sales and they can keep most hunters happy by just letting them have a tag.

 

[Forkyfinder]

Well it should be about a healthy population. Only healthy population I c Is on private. Fwp can't manage why do we pay them too

Depending on who you ask - we are keeping them safe from cwd by low numbers

 

[Deleted member 56631]

You only get CWD if you test for it

 

[huntin24/7]

I had the chance to talk to the most pro bma landowner I know this past week. He has a large ranch enrolled in a type 1 and loves the program and giving guys that don’t have private land access the opportunity to hunt. Hell of a good guy. He told me it’s getting to be too much though with non stop pressure every day from September through November at times seeing 6-7 vehicles parked at spots throughout his ranch. I’d imagine he’s not the only one experiencing this. It’s a great program, but it’s another example of the hunting pressure issue.

 

[Shed God]

Any updates on this.

 

[Ben Lamb]

I had the chance to talk to the most pro bma landowner I know this past week. He has a large ranch enrolled in a type 1 and loves the program and giving guys that don’t have private land access the opportunity to hunt. Hell of a good guy. He told me it’s getting to be too much though with non stop pressure every day from September through November at times seeing 6-7 vehicles parked at spots throughout his ranch. I’d imagine he’s not the only one experiencing this. It’s a great program, but it’s another example of the hunting pressure issue.

Fewer acres enrolled, more displacement from limited entry & being in the hot spot for hunting leads to increased pressure.

Block Management continues slow decline despite increased payment cap

At its peak, the program opened 8.8 million acres of private land to public hunters.

montanafreepress.org

 

[antlerradar]

It is not just the acres lost, but the quality of the acres lost. The ranches with the best quality are going to be the first shift from BM to some type of private lease.
We can talk about the influencer effect all we want, but the biggest reason people pay to hunt private land is because they are looking for better quality and right now public land is not much competition for a private lease. Leasing started in SE MT in the early 80's, when the infuencers were named Jack O'Conner.

 

[Sioux33]

Would like to see a shift to more of the type 2 BMA’s. Limit pressure, keep animals on the property and less stress on the landowners. Most of the type 1’s that I know of are a ghost town after opening weekend.

 

[Nameless Range]

My son shot his first deer and a handful of grouse, I shot a whitetail doe, some visiting friends shot two mule deer bucks and one cow elk - all on Block Management this fall in 2024.

Sure the quality is varied across the state and its districts, but I cringe to think of what would happen if the majority of those 630,000+ hunter days BM provides were pushed to public land in the absence of BM. In the area in which I live, they would be.

Though people like to bellyache about the quality of some areas, BM is an important vector of opportunity to be sure, but it’s also an important tool for better distributing hunters across an already hammered landscape.

 

[Pagosa]

It is not just the acres lost, but the quality of the acres lost. The ranches with the best quality are going to be the first shift from BM to some type of private lease.
We can talk about the influencer effect all we want, but the biggest reason people pay to hunt private land is because they are looking for better quality and right now public land is not much competition for a private lease. Leasing started in SE MT in the early 80's, when the infuencers were named Jack O'Conner.

Me and my kids spent 7 days in Region 4 hunting and seen approximately 1-5% of wild game on accessible public lands. The other 95-99% were on private ranches (Tee Bar, LF,etc). We hiked and glassed tons in remote areas.

When discussing my concerns with the FWP employees at the Augusta check station they said their 10 year average was up on deer at the highest point. I asked about how many were killed on private and the FWP employee/warden said they don't track public to private, WTF.

The FWP weekly check station data wrote that hunting was mixed even with the cold, snowy temperatures. And they show a young hunter with a really nice whitetail wearing the LF ranch brand.

They (we) have shot everything off public and the only animals left are on private. Less private is accessible and more hunters are concentrated on the public lands.

We need to be calling out our commissioners and get new individuals appointed that are concerned about wildlife management, not these current dickheads. Roughly 1:1 ratio between nonresidents:residents.

The FWP keeps bringing up hunter opportunity and I tried asking about who they are asking in their non-direct poll of 5000 hunters about being satisfied.