Montana General Season Structure Proposal

[Shed God]

Holy shit. It's not rocket science. Manage the herds to a healthy population. Mule deer not everyone hunting every year. Its a $*)Q!#@$ draw. LE BEST TOOL. fwp blm a bunch of educated idiots influenced by politicians. Morons. But private and out of state get there's. Sacrifice land owners and outfitters need to get there's but make the public better when u draw.

Elk make it the land owners problem. They let u shoot cows October December August

 

[muleydude]

Snowy Range, Laramie Range, Sierra Madres, all have October seasons and very high buck to doe ratio's as well as excellent age structures.

Prior to last winter, the Greys, Winds, Tetons, etc. (regions G and H) had the same.

October seasons are why.

I suggest you do some research and talking to biologists in other states...and listen to the seasons updates that are available on-line for all the regions in Wyoming.

Little late back to the party, but I'll take this on.......I have done the research; I have been in those areas; I have hunted Eastern Montana the last 30 yrs; I understand the landscape and have talked to many biologists in other states. Have spent considerable time in Wyoming.

Your comparing Eastern Montana to the Snowy Range, Laramie Range and Sierra Madres?? Your comparing G and H in Wyoming to Eastern Montana??

G and H are de facto LE regions for non-residents; and combined with the ruggedness of all these areas, they naturally, severely, limit access. These areas are also not as productive mule deer herds as Eastern Montana; they are subjected to harder winters, and have had their winter range degraded by sub-divisions and all kinds of other human affects.

A 30 day October season in Eastern Montana, where human access is easy and deer are not migratory, is not going to have the same effect. Your neighboring States with similar habitat and October seasons is proof that easy access areas don't really benefit much from October seasons.

Have hunted many of the western Wyoming non resident and resident LE hunts (many times), they used to be fairly easy to get in the 90's and early 2000's; all LE, all very few tags given out, some with short October seasons, and they have been this way for decades; are the overall deer numbers suddenly spectacular because of it?? Nope......you should do your research.........because killing bucks in October vs November does nothing to increase the number of animals on the landscape other than a possible slight increase in bucks, even if that is achievable. And limiting the amount of bucks killed doesn't do anything to increase the overall herd size. Yup.....it does the trick for better buck to doe ratio's and it does the trick for better age classes, but, increasing the size of the overall herd?? No.......

What you guys are really wanting, and the "secret" here is you want better buck to doe ratios, but, you really want a better age structure. Thats a worthy goal. But there are rule structures that enable this......its called move it all to LE. But your wrapping the "we gotta save the mule deer herd" into a regulation scheme that is really about you wanting a better age class.

The problem is in Region 6 and Region 7 you had a devastating drought coupled with a hard winter coupled with high antlerless harvest that all hit at one time; that is what caused the current problem.......not shooting bucks in November...........

Region 7 Biologist quote in 2019:

“Mule deer are looking good,” Foster said, “Numbers are 5 percent below last year but still 27 percent above long-term average.”

Foster determines long-term average by tracing survey data back to the 1996-97 season and harvest figures back to 1976.

Surveys show mule deer population density in southeast Montana has been increasing since about 2012, when deer numbers began to rebound from a crash following back-to-back bitter winters. In 2015, deer reached the highest density recorded in the past three decades."

Region 6 Biologist quote in 2019:

Overall, numbers seen during spring surveys showed region-wide population at 56 percent above average. Due to increasing quota numbers, there may be surplus tags still available in some districts.

Winter mortality was variable across the region during the 2018-2019 winter but likely was minimal based on observations and reports. “A small amount of winter mortality was observed throughout the region,” says Outlook-area biologist Ryan Williamson, “with mostly fawns succumbing to the harsher late winter weather. Generally speaking, the mule deer appeared to have overwintered well.”

So, yes......I do talk to biologists and actually read facts and not internet conjecture..........these quotes from 2019 jive exactly with what we saw in those regions in 2019. The bottom line is you guys want older bucks.......like I said, worthy goal, then do what you need to do and get more LE units......but don't wrap "save the herd" around that goal.........

 

[Deleted member 53219]

Little late back to the party, but I'll take this on.......I have done the research; I have been in those areas; I have hunted Eastern Montana the last 30 yrs; I understand the landscape and have talked to many biologists in other states. Have spent considerable time in Wyoming.

Your comparing Eastern Montana to the Snowy Range, Laramie Range and Sierra Madres?? Your comparing G and H in Wyoming to Eastern Montana??

G and H are de facto LE regions for non-residents; and combined with the ruggedness of all these areas, they naturally, severely, limit access. These areas are also not as productive mule deer herds as Eastern Montana; they are subjected to harder winters, and have had their winter range degraded by sub-divisions and all kinds of other human affects.

A 30 day October season in Eastern Montana, where human access is easy and deer are not migratory, is not going to have the same effect. Your neighboring States with similar habitat and October seasons is proof that easy access areas don't really benefit much from October seasons.

Have hunted many of the western Wyoming non resident and resident LE hunts (many times), they used to be fairly easy to get in the 90's and early 2000's; all LE, all very few tags given out, some with short October seasons, and they have been this way for decades; are the overall deer numbers suddenly spectacular because of it?? Nope......you should do your research.........because killing bucks in October vs November does nothing to increase the number of animals on the landscape other than a possible slight increase in bucks, even if that is achievable. And limiting the amount of bucks killed doesn't do anything to increase the overall herd size. Yup.....it does the trick for better buck to doe ratio's and it does the trick for better age classes, but, increasing the size of the overall herd?? No.......

What you guys are really wanting, and the "secret" here is you want better buck to doe ratios, but, you really want a better age structure. Thats a worthy goal. But there are rule structures that enable this......its called move it all to LE. But your wrapping the "we gotta save the mule deer herd" into a regulation scheme that is really about you wanting a better age class.

The problem is in Region 6 and Region 7 you had a devastating drought coupled with a hard winter coupled with high antlerless harvest that all hit at one time; that is what caused the current problem.......not shooting bucks in November...........

Region 7 Biologist quote in 2019:

“Mule deer are looking good,” Foster said, “Numbers are 5 percent below last year but still 27 percent above long-term average.”

Foster determines long-term average by tracing survey data back to the 1996-97 season and harvest figures back to 1976.

Surveys show mule deer population density in southeast Montana has been increasing since about 2012, when deer numbers began to rebound from a crash following back-to-back bitter winters. In 2015, deer reached the highest density recorded in the past three decades."

Region 6 Biologist quote in 2019:

Overall, numbers seen during spring surveys showed region-wide population at 56 percent above average. Due to increasing quota numbers, there may be surplus tags still available in some districts.

Winter mortality was variable across the region during the 2018-2019 winter but likely was minimal based on observations and reports. “A small amount of winter mortality was observed throughout the region,” says Outlook-area biologist Ryan Williamson, “with mostly fawns succumbing to the harsher late winter weather. Generally speaking, the mule deer appeared to have overwintered well.”

So, yes......I do talk to biologists and actually read facts and not internet conjecture..........these quotes from 2019 jive exactly with what we saw in those regions in 2019. The bottom line is you guys want older bucks.......like I said, worthy goal, then do what you need to do and get more LE units......but don't wrap "save the herd" around that goal.........

Welcome to hunttalk

 

[Point Creep]

@muleydude You’re the most verbose and opposed to the idea to an END to general season rifle rut hunting in Montana that’s ever logged into this site. You’re also NOT passing the sniff test. What’s your real angle other than you must hunt MT every year during peak rut?

More deer are killed incidentally by people hunting elk on public than you can imagine. Especially after a big snow when elk hunters are out in force. Western MT, eastern MT, the same…

You can quote FWP biologists all day long but you’re a damn fool to think removing rut rifle general will not improve deer numbers, private/public distribution, age structure and absolutely overall quality hunting experience for those hunting DEER, especially on public land. Which brings the concept of these NR “combo” licenses which also need to go away.

Fill in the details on you, your vested interest in MT mule deer hunting because there’s clearly unmentioned details you’ve got the toilet seat closed on.

 

[SwaggyD]

Little late back to the party, but I'll take this on.......I have done the research; I have been in those areas; I have hunted Eastern Montana the last 30 yrs; I understand the landscape and have talked to many biologists in other states. Have spent considerable time in Wyoming.

Your comparing Eastern Montana to the Snowy Range, Laramie Range and Sierra Madres?? Your comparing G and H in Wyoming to Eastern Montana??

G and H are de facto LE regions for non-residents; and combined with the ruggedness of all these areas, they naturally, severely, limit access. These areas are also not as productive mule deer herds as Eastern Montana; they are subjected to harder winters, and have had their winter range degraded by sub-divisions and all kinds of other human affects.

A 30 day October season in Eastern Montana, where human access is easy and deer are not migratory, is not going to have the same effect. Your neighboring States with similar habitat and October seasons is proof that easy access areas don't really benefit much from October seasons.

Have hunted many of the western Wyoming non resident and resident LE hunts (many times), they used to be fairly easy to get in the 90's and early 2000's; all LE, all very few tags given out, some with short October seasons, and they have been this way for decades; are the overall deer numbers suddenly spectacular because of it?? Nope......you should do your research.........because killing bucks in October vs November does nothing to increase the number of animals on the landscape other than a possible slight increase in bucks, even if that is achievable. And limiting the amount of bucks killed doesn't do anything to increase the overall herd size. Yup.....it does the trick for better buck to doe ratio's and it does the trick for better age classes, but, increasing the size of the overall herd?? No.......

What you guys are really wanting, and the "secret" here is you want better buck to doe ratios, but, you really want a better age structure. Thats a worthy goal. But there are rule structures that enable this......its called move it all to LE. But your wrapping the "we gotta save the mule deer herd" into a regulation scheme that is really about you wanting a better age class.

The problem is in Region 6 and Region 7 you had a devastating drought coupled with a hard winter coupled with high antlerless harvest that all hit at one time; that is what caused the current problem.......not shooting bucks in November...........

Region 7 Biologist quote in 2019:

“Mule deer are looking good,” Foster said, “Numbers are 5 percent below last year but still 27 percent above long-term average.”

Foster determines long-term average by tracing survey data back to the 1996-97 season and harvest figures back to 1976.

Surveys show mule deer population density in southeast Montana has been increasing since about 2012, when deer numbers began to rebound from a crash following back-to-back bitter winters. In 2015, deer reached the highest density recorded in the past three decades."

Region 6 Biologist quote in 2019:

Overall, numbers seen during spring surveys showed region-wide population at 56 percent above average. Due to increasing quota numbers, there may be surplus tags still available in some districts.

Winter mortality was variable across the region during the 2018-2019 winter but likely was minimal based on observations and reports. “A small amount of winter mortality was observed throughout the region,” says Outlook-area biologist Ryan Williamson, “with mostly fawns succumbing to the harsher late winter weather. Generally speaking, the mule deer appeared to have overwintered well.”

So, yes......I do talk to biologists and actually read facts and not internet conjecture..........these quotes from 2019 jive exactly with what we saw in those regions in 2019. The bottom line is you guys want older bucks.......like I said, worthy goal, then do what you need to do and get more LE units......but don't wrap "save the herd" around that goal.........

Do you hunt both units every year? Or just in 2019?

 

[BuzzH]

@muleydude You’re the most verbose and opposed to the idea to an END to general season rifle rut hunting in Montana that’s ever logged into this site. You’re also NOT passing the sniff test. What’s your real angle other than you must hunt MT every year during peak rut?

More deer are killed incidentally by people hunting elk on public than you can imagine. Especially after a big snow when elk hunters are out in force. Western MT, eastern MT, the same…

You can quote FWP biologists all day long but you’re a damn fool to think removing rut rifle general will not improve deer numbers, private/public distribution, age structure and absolutely overall quality hunting experience for those hunting DEER, especially on public land. Which brings the concept of these NR “combo” licenses which also need to go away.

Fill in the details on you, your vested interest in MT mule deer hunting because there’s clearly unmentioned details you’ve got the toilet seat closed on.

I'm thinking outfitter, disgruntled one.

 

[muleydude]

I'm thinking outfitter, disgruntled one.

Ha! Nope not an outfitter; Just a non resident that has hunted the great States of Wyoming and Montana on DIY public land hunts for 30+ years. Spend 12-14 days in each State; some years just Montana, some just Wyoming,and some both States. And yes, your outfitters are a joke, especially the ones around Broadus.......its why we left in the early 2000's; complete joke; Went back a few times since then, but still stupid.....the residents and NR hunting the BMA and public lands were fine, thats the least of the problems in that area. You guys never seem refute anything or have any facts, you just throw out BS; your own State biologists just made public statements that your herds in Region 6 and 7 were at the very top of historical ranges. I guess we can go down the conspiracy trail and say they don't know what their talking about. That would be a pretty big lie to put out there publicly. If thats your claim, that all this data is false, then instead of trying to get a new season structure, I suggest you have bigger problems, and you need to work on an overhaul of your biologists in the FWP first........

So, to get more specific, it is actually very easy to make some apples to apples comparisons........Unit 17 Wyoming is literally straight south of Broadus; same terrain, same everything......but, it has a short October season from Oct 1st until the 14th; used to be until the 20th.......but, as I indicated in an earlier post, its a slippery slope........3 week season in unit 17 didn't attain the goals......so......now drop it to 14 days.......pretty soon it will be 7 day season and the cries will go out to "make it an APR!; That will fix it!!" "stop lettin' those damn NR shoot the dinks, and we will have all kinds of deer and big bucks!"

But, here is the most recent report on it:

"Although Hunt Area 17 had an uptick in observed fawns during the classification surveys in2022, the preceding four-year period experienced ratios below the levels required to maintain a population (65:100).This herd has been well below objective for many years. This is likely due to various factors,including land use change, climatic conditions and disease."

Then Wyoming makes it nice because you can go see the post season buck classification; Wyoming classifies bucks in "Class 1"; "Class 2"; and "Class 3"; for those of you that do not know, that is basically a size based observation; obviously "Class 3" would be more mature bucks; "Class 2" would be middle of the road bucks.

Now, you can go all the way back to 2018 and look at it, but, "Class 3" numbers for unit 17 from 2018 on to 2022 were 6,7,0,5 and 1.........so, same terrain, just literally 20 miles south of Broadus....short October season and literally no advancement in age class. ONE buck observed in Class 3 post season in 2022; ONE......... In 2022 there were 263 males post season, only 1 buck out of all of those was a Class 3 buck.

And, 17 is mostly private land, much more difficult access then 704 and 705 in Montana;

So, my point is if you are going to radically propose changing your season structure, you should do a little more research on it. Get biologist opinions, cite those opinions, etc.

The resource in Eastern Montana can handle it; how is it possible you had populations at the historical top ends of the ranges in 2019, and now, November seasons, somehow changed all that in 3 yrs?? It didn't.

Montana is typically a fun hunt, long season, while I don't disagree that pressure is congregated in the middle of November, it is still a great experience. If you want a 170 buck its not your State, we go elsewhere for that. if you want a 6 week season, and typically see good numbers of deer and bucks with a few in the older age classes and be able to roam were you would like, when you would like, that is a great experience, and is why NR will continue to fork over $1000+ for tags. There is no State like it; yup, I have the resources to navigate all the other States which regulate the hell out of everything; I get it.....but you know, its enjoyable to come to a State to hunt that lets you roam around in big areas for long periods of time and your Residents overwhelmingly support this structure as well.

If you want to limit things, limit us NR; fair enough; I have no idea why you all let them slip the whole "Come home to hunt" and similar tags to circumvent the statuatory limits on NR tags; so start there; you got the doe tags on public land elminated; now put your foot down when the FWP wants to bring them back; Legislatively force the NR overall quota to be what they intended it to be, and get rid of all those other stupid tags. Those are all good places to put energy.

But, think long and hard about taking this season structure down; it has worked for decades; and is still working as evidenced by your very recent populations being at historical highs.

Once you get rid of it......your not getting back, ever; and you will only keep on slipping down the slope, just like in wyoming unit 17......it just concentrates the harvest into a smaller window and will make your experience in Montana worse, not better.

 

[Point Creep]

I'm thinking outfitter, disgruntled one.

Yep

 

[SwaggyD]

If you want to limit things, limit us NR;

See post #4.

 

[muleydude]

See post #4.

Have no problem with NR regional caps. Have no problem limiting NR to the original statutory limit. Let the “Come home to hunt” crowd duke it out in the general NR draw like all the rest of us.

Do you hunt both units every year? Or just in 2019?

hmm. Not sure what you mean by “units”. Yes for sure have hunted a week in region 6 and a week in region 7 several times in the same season. 2019 just in region 6 but spent 14 days in 4 different units in 6 that year. Spent a fair amount of time in 410 over the years. But don’t disagree the cow tags hurt that area. Settled more into region 6 currently, although we started there in the late 90’s. Flopped around quite a bit in those units. No doubt hunting pressure has gone up in the last 25 yrs there. So a NR regional cap in region 6 I would have no problem with. 2019 and 2020 were pretty decent yrs in the breaks though. Back when the CMR limited the November hunt and closed it on the 10th we always thought that would create bigger bucks Becuase it limited that November hunt on them. But after they did away with that we thought for sure we would see some great bucks the next yr. But didn’t seam to make any difference. Drew the coveted bull tag in the Breaks. Shot a decent one. Not what I wanted. But decent one. Started in region 3 in the mid 80’s. Still go back once in awhile to region 3. In the 80’s Dell and Lima were the hot spots for us non residents. If you go, go to the Dell schoolhouse. Great chicken fried steak there. If you want I can give you the exact coordinates on the public ground and BMA’s we’ve hunted across the State? Like I said above, Broadus in the mid to late 90’s was like heaven. And then the outfitters became a joke there. And Eastman and all the dumbass Primos guys started showing up in their monogrammed painted suburbans, so then it got even stupider. One yr drew the West River SD Mule deer tag along with our Montana tag. So hunted broadus a week then hunted a week out of Wall, SD. All public land hunting in both States. Was a great trip.

Started in Wyoming in the early 90’s in the black hills. Fun hunt. Lots of whitetails. Went back a few times but that ran its course. Moved out to Western Wyoming in the early to mid 90’s. Was able to draw quite easily in several of those LE units. Million acres of public land and only 100 tags in one of them. Low deer densities but great bucks. Them Huntnfool and Eastman said it was the unit to go to shoot a 180 buck. That shot it up to 10 pts in a hurry to draw. And had to talk a lot of hunters off the edge in that unit Becuase they just couldn’t believe they couldn’t find that 180 buck. Lots of general hunt public opportunities in that area did over the years too. Nothing special but was filler for the few yrs we didn’t get drawn in Montana. Have had quite a few yrs draw both Montana and Wyoming.

Quite a bit of experience in Idaho as well. Can give you some good places in the selway if you want. Drop camps are relatively cheap. Bring you up drop you off for a week and come back and get you. Only outfitter experience I’ve had. But enjoyable when they drop you off and then leave you alone.

I don’t know, anything else you want to know??

 

[BuzzH]

Ha! Nope not an outfitter; Just a non resident that has hunted the great States of Wyoming and Montana on DIY public land hunts for 30+ years. Spend 12-14 days in each State; some years just Montana, some just Wyoming,and some both States. And yes, your outfitters are a joke, especially the ones around Broadus.......its why we left in the early 2000's; complete joke; Went back a few times since then, but still stupid.....the residents and NR hunting the BMA and public lands were fine, thats the least of the problems in that area. You guys never seem refute anything or have any facts, you just throw out BS; your own State biologists just made public statements that your herds in Region 6 and 7 were at the very top of historical ranges. I guess we can go down the conspiracy trail and say they don't know what their talking about. That would be a pretty big lie to put out there publicly. If thats your claim, that all this data is false, then instead of trying to get a new season structure, I suggest you have bigger problems, and you need to work on an overhaul of your biologists in the FWP first........

So, to get more specific, it is actually very easy to make some apples to apples comparisons........Unit 17 Wyoming is literally straight south of Broadus; same terrain, same everything......but, it has a short October season from Oct 1st until the 14th; used to be until the 20th.......but, as I indicated in an earlier post, its a slippery slope........3 week season in unit 17 didn't attain the goals......so......now drop it to 14 days.......pretty soon it will be 7 day season and the cries will go out to "make it an APR!; That will fix it!!" "stop lettin' those damn NR shoot the dinks, and we will have all kinds of deer and big bucks!"

But, here is the most recent report on it:

"Although Hunt Area 17 had an uptick in observed fawns during the classification surveys in2022, the preceding four-year period experienced ratios below the levels required to maintain a population (65:100).This herd has been well below objective for many years. This is likely due to various factors,including land use change, climatic conditions and disease."

Then Wyoming makes it nice because you can go see the post season buck classification; Wyoming classifies bucks in "Class 1"; "Class 2"; and "Class 3"; for those of you that do not know, that is basically a size based observation; obviously "Class 3" would be more mature bucks; "Class 2" would be middle of the road bucks.

Now, you can go all the way back to 2018 and look at it, but, "Class 3" numbers for unit 17 from 2018 on to 2022 were 6,7,0,5 and 1.........so, same terrain, just literally 20 miles south of Broadus....short October season and literally no advancement in age class. ONE buck observed in Class 3 post season in 2022; ONE......... In 2022 there were 263 males post season, only 1 buck out of all of those was a Class 3 buck.

And, 17 is mostly private land, much more difficult access then 704 and 705 in Montana;

So, my point is if you are going to radically propose changing your season structure, you should do a little more research on it. Get biologist opinions, cite those opinions, etc.

The resource in Eastern Montana can handle it; how is it possible you had populations at the historical top ends of the ranges in 2019, and now, November seasons, somehow changed all that in 3 yrs?? It didn't.

Montana is typically a fun hunt, long season, while I don't disagree that pressure is congregated in the middle of November, it is still a great experience. If you want a 170 buck its not your State, we go elsewhere for that. if you want a 6 week season, and typically see good numbers of deer and bucks with a few in the older age classes and be able to roam were you would like, when you would like, that is a great experience, and is why NR will continue to fork over $1000+ for tags. There is no State like it; yup, I have the resources to navigate all the other States which regulate the hell out of everything; I get it.....but you know, its enjoyable to come to a State to hunt that lets you roam around in big areas for long periods of time and your Residents overwhelmingly support this structure as well.

If you want to limit things, limit us NR; fair enough; I have no idea why you all let them slip the whole "Come home to hunt" and similar tags to circumvent the statuatory limits on NR tags; so start there; you got the doe tags on public land elminated; now put your foot down when the FWP wants to bring them back; Legislatively force the NR overall quota to be what they intended it to be, and get rid of all those other stupid tags. Those are all good places to put energy.

But, think long and hard about taking this season structure down; it has worked for decades; and is still working as evidenced by your very recent populations being at historical highs.

Once you get rid of it......your not getting back, ever; and you will only keep on slipping down the slope, just like in wyoming unit 17......it just concentrates the harvest into a smaller window and will make your experience in Montana worse, not better.

100% won't make my Montana hunting worse for deer.

Also, you should study up on how Wyoming classifies deer, nothing to do with maturity.

 

[antlerradar]

Ha! Nope not an outfitter; Just a non resident that has hunted the great States of Wyoming and Montana on DIY public land hunts for 30+ years. Spend 12-14 days in each State; some years just Montana, some just Wyoming,and some both States. And yes, your outfitters are a joke, especially the ones around Broadus.......its why we left in the early 2000's; complete joke; Went back a few times since then, but still stupid.....the residents and NR hunting the BMA and public lands were fine, thats the least of the problems in that area. You guys never seem refute anything or have any facts, you just throw out BS; your own State biologists just made public statements that your herds in Region 6 and 7 were at the very top of historical ranges. I guess we can go down the conspiracy trail and say they don't know what their talking about. That would be a pretty big lie to put out there publicly. If thats your claim, that all this data is false, then instead of trying to get a new season structure, I suggest you have bigger problems, and you need to work on an overhaul of your biologists in the FWP first........

So, to get more specific, it is actually very easy to make some apples to apples comparisons........Unit 17 Wyoming is literally straight south of Broadus; same terrain, same everything......but, it has a short October season from Oct 1st until the 14th; used to be until the 20th.......but, as I indicated in an earlier post, its a slippery slope........3 week season in unit 17 didn't attain the goals......so......now drop it to 14 days.......pretty soon it will be 7 day season and the cries will go out to "make it an APR!; That will fix it!!" "stop lettin' those damn NR shoot the dinks, and we will have all kinds of deer and big bucks!"

But, here is the most recent report on it:

"Although Hunt Area 17 had an uptick in observed fawns during the classification surveys in2022, the preceding four-year period experienced ratios below the levels required to maintain a population (65:100).This herd has been well below objective for many years. This is likely due to various factors,including land use change, climatic conditions and disease."

Then Wyoming makes it nice because you can go see the post season buck classification; Wyoming classifies bucks in "Class 1"; "Class 2"; and "Class 3"; for those of you that do not know, that is basically a size based observation; obviously "Class 3" would be more mature bucks; "Class 2" would be middle of the road bucks.

Now, you can go all the way back to 2018 and look at it, but, "Class 3" numbers for unit 17 from 2018 on to 2022 were 6,7,0,5 and 1.........so, same terrain, just literally 20 miles south of Broadus....short October season and literally no advancement in age class. ONE buck observed in Class 3 post season in 2022; ONE......... In 2022 there were 263 males post season, only 1 buck out of all of those was a Class 3 buck.

And, 17 is mostly private land, much more difficult access then 704 and 705 in Montana;

So, my point is if you are going to radically propose changing your season structure, you should do a little more research on it. Get biologist opinions, cite those opinions, etc.

The resource in Eastern Montana can handle it; how is it possible you had populations at the historical top ends of the ranges in 2019, and now, November seasons, somehow changed all that in 3 yrs?? It didn't.

Montana is typically a fun hunt, long season, while I don't disagree that pressure is congregated in the middle of November, it is still a great experience. If you want a 170 buck its not your State, we go elsewhere for that. if you want a 6 week season, and typically see good numbers of deer and bucks with a few in the older age classes and be able to roam were you would like, when you would like, that is a great experience, and is why NR will continue to fork over $1000+ for tags. There is no State like it; yup, I have the resources to navigate all the other States which regulate the hell out of everything; I get it.....but you know, its enjoyable to come to a State to hunt that lets you roam around in big areas for long periods of time and your Residents overwhelmingly support this structure as well.

If you want to limit things, limit us NR; fair enough; I have no idea why you all let them slip the whole "Come home to hunt" and similar tags to circumvent the statuatory limits on NR tags; so start there; you got the doe tags on public land elminated; now put your foot down when the FWP wants to bring them back; Legislatively force the NR overall quota to be what they intended it to be, and get rid of all those other stupid tags. Those are all good places to put energy.

But, think long and hard about taking this season structure down; it has worked for decades; and is still working as evidenced by your very recent populations being at historical highs.

Once you get rid of it......your not getting back, ever; and you will only keep on slipping down the slope, just like in wyoming unit 17......it just concentrates the harvest into a smaller window and will make your experience in Montana worse, not better.

The only way that FWP was able to claim the high numbers was that counting trend areas in the winter and spring counts deer that spend most/all of hunting season on private land. There was a great recovery on private land from the 2012 winter, not so much on the bigger blocks of public. The places I use to hunt where I saw great numbers in the 80's and 90's never made much of a recovery. Now those places are almost void of deer. The private land will recover from the droughts of a few years ago, the big blocks of public will not. I hope that the end of public land doe tags will help to remedy this.

Interesting the bio used the 96/97 year as a starting point, Without a doubt the second most devastating winter of my lifetime.

You could be correct that the earlier season will not increase the number of 170 bucks(we are slipping on what is a big buck). I to have my doubts that with out limited entry the quality will change much. This proposal is not about big bucks, if it was I would be pushing for LE. This proposal is about access to the bucks. In SE Montana bucks are more likely to be in the rough public in October then in November when they are looking for does on the river and creek bottoms. By going to an Oct season we may not save many bucks, just change where they are killed.

 

[SwaggyD]

Have no problem with NR regional caps. Have no problem limiting NR to the original statutory limit. Let the “Come home to hunt” crowd duke it out in the general NR draw like all the rest of us.

hmm. Not sure what you mean by “units”. Yes for sure have hunted a week in region 6 and a week in region 7 several times in the same season. 2019 just in region 6 but spent 14 days in 4 different units in 6 that year. Spent a fair amount of time in 410 over the years. But don’t disagree the cow tags hurt that area. Settled more into region 6 currently, although we started there in the late 90’s. Flopped around quite a bit in those units. No doubt hunting pressure has gone up in the last 25 yrs there. So a NR regional cap in region 6 I would have no problem with. 2019 and 2020 were pretty decent yrs in the breaks though. Back when the CMR limited the November hunt and closed it on the 10th we always thought that would create bigger bucks Becuase it limited that November hunt on them. But after they did away with that we thought for sure we would see some great bucks the next yr. But didn’t seam to make any difference. Drew the coveted bull tag in the Breaks. Shot a decent one. Not what I wanted. But decent one. Started in region 3 in the mid 80’s. Still go back once in awhile to region 3. In the 80’s Dell and Lima were the hot spots for us non residents. If you go, go to the Dell schoolhouse. Great chicken fried steak there. If you want I can give you the exact coordinates on the public ground and BMA’s we’ve hunted across the State? Like I said above, Broadus in the mid to late 90’s was like heaven. And then the outfitters became a joke there. And Eastman and all the dumbass Primos guys started showing up in their monogrammed painted suburbans, so then it got even stupider. One yr drew the West River SD Mule deer tag along with our Montana tag. So hunted broadus a week then hunted a week out of Wall, SD. All public land hunting in both States. Was a great trip.

Started in Wyoming in the early 90’s in the black hills. Fun hunt. Lots of whitetails. Went back a few times but that ran its course. Moved out to Western Wyoming in the early to mid 90’s. Was able to draw quite easily in several of those LE units. Million acres of public land and only 100 tags in one of them. Low deer densities but great bucks. Them Huntnfool and Eastman said it was the unit to go to shoot a 180 buck. That shot it up to 10 pts in a hurry to draw. And had to talk a lot of hunters off the edge in that unit Becuase they just couldn’t believe they couldn’t find that 180 buck. Lots of general hunt public opportunities in that area did over the years too. Nothing special but was filler for the few yrs we didn’t get drawn in Montana. Have had quite a few yrs draw both Montana and Wyoming.

Quite a bit of experience in Idaho as well. Can give you some good places in the selway if you want. Drop camps are relatively cheap. Bring you up drop you off for a week and come back and get you. Only outfitter experience I’ve had. But enjoyable when they drop you off and then leave you alone.

I don’t know, anything else you want to know??

Sounds like 'pick your region/pick your species' would help limit hunters like you from hunting the entire eastern/central part of the state?

 

[rogerthat]

Ha! Nope not an outfitter; Just a non resident that has hunted the great States of Wyoming and Montana on DIY public land hunts for 30+ years. Spend 12-14 days in each State; some years just Montana, some just Wyoming,and some both States. And yes, your outfitters are a joke, especially the ones around Broadus.......its why we left in the early 2000's; complete joke; Went back a few times since then, but still stupid.....the residents and NR hunting the BMA and public lands were fine, thats the least of the problems in that area. You guys never seem refute anything or have any facts, you just throw out BS; your own State biologists just made public statements that your herds in Region 6 and 7 were at the very top of historical ranges. I guess we can go down the conspiracy trail and say they don't know what their talking about. That would be a pretty big lie to put out there publicly. If thats your claim, that all this data is false, then instead of trying to get a new season structure, I suggest you have bigger problems, and you need to work on an overhaul of your biologists in the FWP first........

So, to get more specific, it is actually very easy to make some apples to apples comparisons........Unit 17 Wyoming is literally straight south of Broadus; same terrain, same everything......but, it has a short October season from Oct 1st until the 14th; used to be until the 20th.......but, as I indicated in an earlier post, its a slippery slope........3 week season in unit 17 didn't attain the goals......so......now drop it to 14 days.......pretty soon it will be 7 day season and the cries will go out to "make it an APR!; That will fix it!!" "stop lettin' those damn NR shoot the dinks, and we will have all kinds of deer and big bucks!"

But, here is the most recent report on it:

"Although Hunt Area 17 had an uptick in observed fawns during the classification surveys in2022, the preceding four-year period experienced ratios below the levels required to maintain a population (65:100).This herd has been well below objective for many years. This is likely due to various factors,including land use change, climatic conditions and disease."

Then Wyoming makes it nice because you can go see the post season buck classification; Wyoming classifies bucks in "Class 1"; "Class 2"; and "Class 3"; for those of you that do not know, that is basically a size based observation; obviously "Class 3" would be more mature bucks; "Class 2" would be middle of the road bucks.

Now, you can go all the way back to 2018 and look at it, but, "Class 3" numbers for unit 17 from 2018 on to 2022 were 6,7,0,5 and 1.........so, same terrain, just literally 20 miles south of Broadus....short October season and literally no advancement in age class. ONE buck observed in Class 3 post season in 2022; ONE......... In 2022 there were 263 males post season, only 1 buck out of all of those was a Class 3 buck.

And, 17 is mostly private land, much more difficult access then 704 and 705 in Montana;

So, my point is if you are going to radically propose changing your season structure, you should do a little more research on it. Get biologist opinions, cite those opinions, etc.

The resource in Eastern Montana can handle it; how is it possible you had populations at the historical top ends of the ranges in 2019, and now, November seasons, somehow changed all that in 3 yrs?? It didn't.

Montana is typically a fun hunt, long season, while I don't disagree that pressure is congregated in the middle of November, it is still a great experience. If you want a 170 buck its not your State, we go elsewhere for that. if you want a 6 week season, and typically see good numbers of deer and bucks with a few in the older age classes and be able to roam were you would like, when you would like, that is a great experience, and is why NR will continue to fork over $1000+ for tags. There is no State like it; yup, I have the resources to navigate all the other States which regulate the hell out of everything; I get it.....but you know, its enjoyable to come to a State to hunt that lets you roam around in big areas for long periods of time and your Residents overwhelmingly support this structure as well.

If you want to limit things, limit us NR; fair enough; I have no idea why you all let them slip the whole "Come home to hunt" and similar tags to circumvent the statuatory limits on NR tags; so start there; you got the doe tags on public land elminated; now put your foot down when the FWP wants to bring them back; Legislatively force the NR overall quota to be what they intended it to be, and get rid of all those other stupid tags. Those are all good places to put energy.

But, think long and hard about taking this season structure down; it has worked for decades; and is still working as evidenced by your very recent populations being at historical highs.

Once you get rid of it......your not getting back, ever; and you will only keep on slipping down the slope, just like in wyoming unit 17......it just concentrates the harvest into a smaller window and will make your experience in Montana worse, not better.

All that damn experience you got but you must not have ever driven the highway between Broadus and Gillette during November or early December. Pretty stark changes at the border.

 

[muleydude]

100% won't make my Montana hunting worse for deer.

Also, you should study up on how Wyoming classifies deer, nothing to do with maturity.

I understand exactly how they classify deer;

"Buck class is determined by antler spread, Class 2 bucks = 20-25". Class 3 bucks => 25".

Biologically speaking, the single highest correlation with antler size and spread, is age of the buck. Is it a perfect measure of age? No, but, it very highly correlated.

And in unit 17 your not seeing any improved recruitment into the upper age classes from the early October hunt.

 

[rogerthat]

I understand exactly how they classify deer;

"Buck class is determined by antler spread, Class 2 bucks = 20-25". Class 3 bucks => 25".

Biologically speaking, the single highest correlation with antler size and spread, is age of the buck. Is it a perfect measure of age? No, but, it very highly correlated.

And in unit 17 your not seeing any improved recruitment into the upper age classes from the early October hunt.

So should we make all general seasons during breeding season with high powered rifles? Is that what you’re advocating for? Ever asked yourself why these types of seasons are rare?

 

[muleydude]

The only way that FWP was able to claim the high numbers was that counting trend areas in the winter and spring counts deer that spend most/all of hunting season on private land. There was a great recovery on private land from the 2012 winter, not so much on the bigger blocks of public. The places I use to hunt where I saw great numbers in the 80's and 90's never made much of a recovery. Now those places are almost void of deer. The private land will recover from the droughts of a few years ago, the big blocks of public will not. I hope that the end of public land doe tags will help to remedy this.

Interesting the bio used the 96/97 year as a starting point, Without a doubt the second most devastating winter of my lifetime.

You could be correct that the earlier season will not increase the number of 170 bucks(we are slipping on what is a big buck). I to have my doubts that with out limited entry the quality will change much. This proposal is not about big bucks, if it was I would be pushing for LE. This proposal is about access to the bucks. In SE Montana bucks are more likely to be in the rough public in October then in November when they are looking for does on the river and creek bottoms. By going to an Oct season we may not save many bucks, just change where they are killed.

But, you can hunt in October right now under the current season structure?? From my experience there in November I don't disagree that some bucks are moving off of some of the rough public and onto private. I guess what I would say is if there are more bucks on the public ground in October, then why doesn't everybody just go the first week of the season?? I guess the second question would be, from what you are telling me, it would actually do more harm to the buck population if you went to an October only season because all the bucks are on the public land in October? Wouldn't it make more sense to just leave the current season structure alone so those public land bucks in October are better protected by moving onto the private lands in November away from the masses of hunters on the public ground in November?

 

[Point Creep]

I guess the second question would be, from what you are telling me, it would actually do more harm to the buck population if you went to an October only season because all the bucks are on the public land in October? Wouldn't it make more sense to just leave the current season structure alone so those public land bucks in October are better protected by moving onto the private lands in November away from the masses of hunters on the public ground in November?

Put the crack pipe down.

 

[antlerradar]

But, you can hunt in October right now under the current season structure?? From my experience there in November I don't disagree that some bucks are moving off of some of the rough public and onto private. I guess what I would say is if there are more bucks on the public ground in October, then why doesn't everybody just go the first week of the season?? I guess the second question would be, from what you are telling me, it would actually do more harm to the buck population if you went to an October only season because all the bucks are on the public land in October? Wouldn't it make more sense to just leave the current season structure alone so those public land bucks in October are better protected by moving onto the private lands in November away from the masses of hunters on the public ground in November?

Yes you can hunt those places the first week and a half of season. That however takes skill, hard work and scouting. Most people would rather wait until the rut and just get lucky. To start will I think plenty of bucks would survive, but over time Montana's hunters would adjust and we may kill just as many as we do now. I do think that more people would be less selective and more small two and three points would be taken instead of nice young four points. That may result in more better bucks on public, because any buck that is even close to nice is not coming back from private.

 

[Gerald Martin]

Our proposal doesn’t only shift the harvest of mule deer from Nov. to Oct. It also splits the total number of hunters between regions and whitetail or mule deer and their corresponding seasons. There will be some drop in pressure on either whitetail or mule deer. How people will make their choices is not necessarily predictable but can be measurable with mandatory reporting. Region 6 and 7 are important parts of the state and the trends there are highly influential in how we drafted our proposal, but they aren’t the only regions in trouble that can benefit from this proposal.