Montana General Season Structure Proposal

[Treeshark]

I think the changes are a great idea, but there is a lot of factors that might make it harder than it seems.

I think this proposal is awesome, personally- you guys did a great job with this.

In the name of stress-testing it on HT, one question I do have is how you guys think this jibes with the FWP’s CWD “strategy” with deer. To me, that seems like it could be one of the biggest hurdles to clear.

 

[Nick87]

For the folks that still want some form of mule deer rut opportunity, I’m just curious WHY?

You know why.

 

[Ben Lamb]

This one got buried in the forkies vs four points conversation.

I am genuinely interested in the potential for "creative funding".
Is the cause of their lack of retention solely pay based?

I see the wardens always seem to be hiring, are the bios the same?

The issue of pay is a complicated one due to the way Montana's pay structure is designed within statute. This, along with the need for some uniformity, and legislative reluctance to increase positions or pay, has led to some issues with retention of quality people, and it makes recruitment of new people much more difficult.

What some other agencies are looking at are called "golden handcuffs," meaning incentives used to help people relocate, pay housing costs, increasing cost of living stipends, etc that can be used outside of the pay plan to increase livability for employees who would otherwise struggle with the basic necessities. These incentives are usually tied to a specific amount of time in order to recruit and retain good people.

State investment director describes workforce housing project as 'golden handcuffs' • Daily Montanan

The executive director for the state’s board of investments told legislators Tuesday the workforce housing project in Deer Lodge would be intended to place “golden handcuffs” on employees that would be living there.

dailymontanan.com

 

[Deleted member 53219]

For the folks that still want some form of mule deer rut opportunity, I’m just curious WHY?

We all know why…

 

[rogerthat]

You know why.

No I don’t. That’s why I asked the question. I know why I like to hunt the mule deer rut in other states but for those same reasons I rarely hunt mule deer during Montanas rut hunt.

 

[Nick87]

No I don’t. That’s why I asked the question. I know why I like to hunt the mule deer rut in other states but for those same reasons I rarely hunt mule deer during Montanas rut hunt.

I thought you were being sarcastic, my bad.

 

[brockel]

For the folks that still want some form of mule deer rut opportunity, I’m just curious WHY?

There’s something about a mature mule deer cruising the snow covered gumbo buttes. Honestly my favorite time of the year but I’m just as happy going after coyotes that time of year if it’s better for the mule deer herd health.

 

[Deleted member 53219]

No I don’t. That’s why I asked the question. I know why I like to hunt the mule deer rut in other states but for those same reasons I rarely hunt mule deer during Montanas rut hunt.

Thought you were being rhetorical as well. Same reasons you like hunting other states’ rut tags, but closer to home and wayyyy cheaper, and then add in all the reasons guys won’t admit to, like shooting a dumb rutter off the side of the road with your kids while they are home on Thanksgiving break, and the ease of finding bucks and deer in general, and then sprinkle in social media and egos in on top of it all

 

[Treeshark]

add in all the reasons guys won’t admit to, like shooting a dumb rutter off the side of the road with your kids while they are home on Thanksgiving break

That honestly sounds like a great time- I can see why a lot of guys enjoy it.

Duck hunting in spring would be great time as well, but there are reasons why we don’t do that either.

 

[DFS]

I think the question should be why are people so hesitant to give it up when it isn’t sustainable? Troll over to Montanica if you want to see the outrage. They want antler restrictions and LE before giving up the rut hunt.

 

[rogerthat]

Thought you were being rhetorical as well. Same reasons you like hunting other states’ rut tags, but closer to home and wayyyy cheaper, and then add in all the reasons guys won’t admit to, like shooting a dumb rutter off the side of the road with your kids while they are home on Thanksgiving break, and the ease of finding bucks and deer in general, and then sprinkle in social media and egos in on top of it all

I hunt the rut in other states because big bucks are most vulnerable and I want a big buck. However with Montanas season structure, we shoot any potential big bucks at younger ages before they are ever big. My hunting past bears that out. 31 years of hunting Montana general season and I have only happened into one big buck by happen stance during the rut. 176 inch buck honestly pretty pathetic for 31 years of hunting. So I guess what I am wondering is what do they think they are getting by hunting the rut that they wouldn’t get from an October season? Easier hunting for young bucks? I would like to hear what they specifically think they are getting or value from a November rut hunt

 

[Gerald Martin]

Does the plan allow the hunting of whitetail does during October or is that only for mule deer?

This was suggested by someone who read an early draft and discussed within the group. As written the proposal does not allow for antlerless whitetail during October.

Part of the strategy of separating whitetail and mule deer seasons is to ease the intensity of hunting pressure with less hunters in the field at any given time. We’re also sensitive about potential to add even more hunting pressure with the expansion of rifle hunting in October.

Within our group discussion this was not a topic of complete opposition to the idea.

Speaking personally, I could support allowing antlerless whitetail harvest in October under two scenarios.

The first scenario being that mule deer hunters could use their either sex A tag on a whitetail doe instead of a mule deer buck.

The second scenario would be allowing hunters who select the mule deer season to hunt and have drawn a limited single region antlerless license to fill it during the time they select for their “A” tag.

I’m not supportive of allowing the OTC single region antlerless whitetail to be valid in October since it would be a significant expansion of how long OTC antlerless harvest would be allowed.

 

[rogerthat]

I think the question should be why are people so hesitant to give it up when it isn’t sustainable? Troll over to Montanica if you want to see the outrage. They want antler restrictions and LE before giving up the rut hunt.

What’s not sustainable about the current structure? I keep seeing people say this. Facts are only extremely extremely low buck to doe ratios have any effect on mule deer population. Buck harvest really is a social decision when it comes right down to it. This is a great proposal because it addresses the social issues of over crowding, variability in buck age class, distribution of game animals, etc while keeping opportunity very high.

I wish there was a study that related wild game herd health to robust buck age class variability but I am not aware of one. So we are left with the anecdote of what we know about breeding and genetics in domestic herds which I believe there is something to this but unfortunately no studies to back this up that I’m aware of.

 

[mtmuley]

That honestly sounds like a great time- I can see why a lot of guys enjoy it.

Precisely why the rut hunt is a problem. mtmuley

 

[Wildabeest]

It seems MOGA is well represented and onboard with this proposal.
My perspective is that if Montana hunters are proponents, then UPOM will be opposed.
It's unfair and unreasonable to lump MOGA and UPOM together.

Wasn’t trying to lump them together other than in the sense they both carry significant influence in Helena. Having either the outfitter and/or landowner orgs publicly endorsing this would greatly increase its chances.

 

[shoots-straight]

I guess I'll throw in my 2 cents worth to the conversation.

I'd really like to thank this group for getting together and moving the conversation along. Many of these proposals I can support. Some not so much.

This whole mule deer discussion is Deja vu for me.

A little history on the limited entry mule deer tags in the Bitterroot might shed some light and make some think, or not, about other management directions available.

The Bitterroot deer population counts back in the 80's were showing about a 4 to 7 bucks to does post season counts. The resource was in dire straits and needed attention quickly. The local Bio at the time wished to move the season structure to exactly the same openers that this group has picked out. He felt that having that shift would cure most of the biological woes and more bucks would live. He also loved to hunt early Oct mule deer and did so every year in Wyoming. Weird thing was he managed to kill some big bucks every year in that time frame.

Having grilled him and other management personal over results in other regions in the west that tried these movements in seasons, the consensus was basically nill change in mule deer shot but rather the time of year they got shot in. Lots of reasons for this that I won't go into completely but more hunters go out for deer whent he weather is nice, plus add in that's the only game going on and more people focused on mule deer vs Elk. In heavily hunted areas where the buck to doe ratio's won't recover there is only on recourse to consider and that's limited entry. You have to regulate how many deer are killed regardless or you're in deline. Eventually the 5 year averages get smaller and smaller.

We proposed the LE tags in the Root to bring the mule deer back, nothing more. The Bio that wanted the earlier start dates supported our wishes, and with that help we got the change.

It's comes down to what you're willing to sacrifice? Most Montana resident hunters will kill that forkie every year as it's their God given right to do so. We need to change our mindset in Montana that thinks this way. I've only shot 2 mule deer in 30 years.

On to the proposal which is very similar in structure to what was proposed here back in the 80's . You have to be careful not to throw the baby out with the bath water. We have a pretty good archery season structure in place. You can get the season started by hunting antelope for a couple of weeks then a great archery season that goes to mid October. I would support and work for change for moving a mule deer season up a few weeks but only if that season stayed at 3 weeks for bucks. I would be willing to give up some of the archery maybe around the second weekend in Oct. There would be fluctuation with areas getting better and some worse off. Areas that got better would then get more pressure the next year. People figure out where the better areas are and find a way to get there. Good things won't last anywhere for long. Choosing your hunting district would help for sure. This has merit and might be a tool that helps deer live longer. I'm in the group that feels the earlier opener for mule deer might move more Elk to the private. Time will tell.

The part where we trade quality elk archery time at the expense of poor mule deer hunting time is a no go. For me and many others I'm not willing to support the full month of Oct lost to archery. Gaining 2 weeks earlier for deer isn't a trade I'm willing to make.

Some blame the Elk population competition as the partial reasons in mule deer decline. I'll point out as an example, that in HD 261 of the Root, our Elk populations are at the bottom of the range in the south portion of the split district and compared to back to the 80's are less in numbers. The mule deer populations are also less. The reduced Elk populations in that area haven't increased the mule deer numbers. We are also killing max on lions and have a tough time filling quotas. This district has wolves, bears and coyotes, but not sure their a big part of the problem.

I think Montana has been at a crossroads for awhile now, and the only way to get people to the table is the threat of lost opportunity. I hope there's some positive changes for mule deer management that will actually result in a healthy mule deer herd.

Even with the LE tags in the Bitterroot we are losing deer numbers. Predators are not the smoking gun here. Our club paid for some collars to be put on mule deer several times. Many of the collared deer just bedded down and died. Our bio raced to the sites and did test that never showed anything. There's a lot of moving parts going on with mule deer and I think we need to also study what's limiting their numbers in different regions to address management accordingly.

On another note, I'm not so sure the State of Montana want's more Mule Deer or any other wild ungulate. In the discussions going on with CWD you see that our department personal are willing to kill off the species to keep the disease at bay. That's a whole other discussion for another thread though so I'll leave that here.

 

[Hem]

Good work guys.
I'm all for change.
Now, if we could just get the fees raised for residents such that we can decrease non residents.

 

[Wildabeest]

No I don’t. That’s why I asked the question. I know why I like to hunt the mule deer rut in other states but for those same reasons I rarely hunt mule deer during Montanas rut hunt.

Two words… Neck roasts .

 

[Nick87]

Now, if we could just get the fees raised for residents such that we can decrease non residents.

Just curious why would you as a resident want to decrease the NR? family from out of town?

 

[JMD]

For the folks that still want some form of mule deer rut opportunity, I’m just curious WHY?

The issue of pay is a complicated one due to the way Montana's pay structure is designed within statute. This, along with the need for some uniformity, and legislative reluctance to increase positions or pay, has led to some issues with retention of quality people, and it makes recruitment of new people much more difficult.

What some other agencies are looking at are called "golden handcuffs," meaning incentives used to help people relocate, pay housing costs, increasing cost of living stipends, etc that can be used outside of the pay plan to increase livability for employees who would otherwise struggle with the basic necessities. These incentives are usually tied to a specific amount of time in order to recruit and retain good people.

State investment director describes workforce housing project as 'golden handcuffs' • Daily Montanan

The executive director for the state’s board of investments told legislators Tuesday the workforce housing project in Deer Lodge would be intended to place “golden handcuffs” on employees that would be living there.

dailymontanan.com

The revenue thing at FWP is disingenuous. FWP rakes in a ton of money on point sales as well as the sale of licenses.