Montana General Season Structure Proposal 3.0

[Forkyfinder]

That happened after we released 3.0 to the public and you were fully aware of what was our intention for what we intended to submit for public and commission consideration. Don’t act like we’re now ignoring concerns. You knew what it was about then.

Youre correct. I had plenty of reservations about the proposal when i chose to help you and 8 other people whom i also appreciate.

Im kind of for helping anyone who gives a shit. Id make a business card for dfs if he wanted to declare mule deer an endangered species.

 

[brockel]

But they overlap by two weeks and have for decades. Maybe pronghorn and mule deer hunting aren’t as compatible as deer and elk.

Actually use to be a huge thing around here for people to come for a week when both seasons were going. Tanking of antelope numbers and shitty mule deer hunting changed that. If they’re buddies didn’t have a pronghorn tag then odds were good they had a deer tag to fill while out antelope hunting

 

[BuzzH]

Actually use to be a huge thing around here for people to come for a week when both seasons were going. Tanking of antelope numbers and shitty mule deer hunting changed that. If they’re buddies didn’t have a pronghorn tag then odds were good they had a deer tag to fill while out antelope hunting

I knew a few guys that I hunted with that would do that, but a vast majority even then usually wanted to hunt pronghorn on the opener.

I only one time hunted pronghorn when mule deer season was going on...way back when you could pick up a leftover pronghorn buck for Region 7. So, you know how long ago that was.

I just don't believe that having pronghorn opening while a deer season is going is going to be a big deal.

 

[brockel]

I knew a few guys that I hunted with that would do that, but a vast majority even then usually wanted to hunt pronghorn on the opener.

I only one time hunted pronghorn when mule deer season was going on...way back when you could pick up a leftover pronghorn buck for Region 7. So, you know how long ago that was.

I just don't believe that having pronghorn opening while a deer season is going is going to be a big deal.

It’s going to make BMA and blm around here that much more crowded. Same amount of people on it just now they are spread out vs with this season they will all be on it during the same time frame.

The reason fwp offers surplus pronghorn doe licenses first come first serve only to current pronghorn tag holders is because they don’t want double the people out on the landscape. That came directly from landowners comments changing that. Imagine general deer hunters also out there during shipping time bothering landowners. Not saying landowners are enjoying the thanksgiving calls either but won’t they still be getting them with whitetail hunters?

 

[Gerald Martin]

@Forkyfinder, I can respect that you feel each version of our proposal got worse.

That’s a reflection of adjustment to the feedback we received during the process from various user groups who made it known they were inflexible about accepting the changes as we proposed in 1.0.

The complexity of accommodation for various factions who want protection for their “opportunity” means that any proposal with a chance of being implemented is going to have to take those wishes into consideration. That’s reality and has been done in good faith by everyone involved with MT CSO.

I respect the opinions of folks who don’t like specific aspects of the proposal. They have a right to disagree the same as I have a right to disagree with aspects of different proposals. I do not respect tactics of casting doubts about motives and influences of people as a way of advancing a different policy or agenda. It’s a tactic that works in the political arena for short term gain when those people have the balance of political power or public opinion shifted in their favor. It’s a tactic that destroys trust and credibility when consensus agreements have to be reached among stakeholders who have different interests .

 

[BuzzH]

It’s going to make BMA and blm around here that much more crowded. Same amount of people on it just now they are spread out vs with this season they will all be on it during the same time frame.

The reason fwp offers surplus pronghorn doe licenses first come first serve only to current pronghorn tag holders is because they don’t want double the people out on the landscape. That came directly from landowners comments changing that. Imagine general deer hunters also out there during shipping time bothering landowners. Not saying landowners are enjoying the thanksgiving calls either but won’t they still be getting them with whitetail hunters?

But I thought most Montana hunters prefer to hunt mule deer, and whitetail during the rut?

I don't believe incidental take of deer on the pronghorn opener will be a big deal. The few that do, won't be there later in the season pounding on deer during the rut. That should help with crowding and hunter dispersal, no?

 

[brockel]

But I thought most Montana hunters prefer to hunt mule deer, and whitetail during the rut?

I don't believe incidental take of deer on the pronghorn opener will be a big deal. The few that do, won't be there later in the season pounding on deer during the rut.

They probably do but pushing the mule deer season to October kind of eliminates that doesn’t it?

 

[BuzzH]

They probably do but pushing the mule deer season to October kind of eliminates that doesn’t it?

The last week of October, first week of November, would still be the preferred time to hunt mule deer for most serious deer hunters I would think?

What am I missing?

 

[brockel]

The last week of October would still be the preferred time to hunt mule deer for most serious deer hunters I would think?

What am I missing?

Probably missing the part about majority of people aren’t serious deer hunters. But they still like to drive around all season. So now they are driving around earlier in the year hunting deer when you already have the normal amount of antelope hunters doing the same thing. Landowner fatigue in October will be through the roof.

 

[BuzzH]

Probably missing the part about majority of people aren’t serious deer hunters. But they still like to drive around all season. So now they are driving around earlier in the year hunting deer when you already have the normal amount of antelope hunters doing the same thing. Landowner fatigue in October will be through the roof.

Landowner fatigue is through the roof no matter how long or when the seasons are, just ask them. They just aren't able to be pleased, ever.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought this was about doing something positive for mule deer, not pleasing every last landowner.

 

[brockel]

Landowner fatigue is through the roof no matter how long or when the seasons are, just ask them. They just aren't able to be pleased, ever.

Yet FWP makes a lot of their decisions on landowner tolerance now. Seems like looking at what this season structure will do for that would be important.

 

[BuzzH]

Yet FWP makes a lot of their decisions on landowner tolerance now. Seems like looking at what this season structure will do for that would be important.

The priority is still about doing something positive for mule deer.

Remember when landowners pushed shoulder seasons, then immediately starting bitching about people asking them for permission to hunt?

Same thing here, they want unlimited OTC cow tags, but then bitch that people are asking for permission to hunt the over objective elk herds via unlimited cow tags. There's no way to make them happy.

I'm all about working together when it makes sense, but at some point, they just need to suck it up and deal with it.

 

[Elky Welky]

Opted to be a fly on the wall for this one, and I don’t regret that choice. For the record, I was congratulating @Forkyfinder for getting his quote in the paper from the Billings meeting.

We’re almost to the point where we’ll all put down our pitchforks for a few months and pick up our shotguns and bows. I think it’s getting to be about that time.

 

[brockel]

The priority is still about doing something positive for mule deer.

Remember when landowners pushed shoulder seasons, then immediately starting bitching about people asking them for permission to hunt?

Same thing here, they want unlimited OTC cow tags, but then bitch that people are asking for permission to hunt the over objective elk herds via unlimited cow tags. There's no way to make them happy.

I'm all about working together when it makes sense, but at some point, they just need to suck it up and deal with it.

Don’t disagree but I just don’t see this moving the needle for mule deer. You might have a few more bucks get older but you are still going to kill a ton of younger deer.

Only way in my opinion you move the needle for mule deer is to move it to some sort of limited entry. Wouldn’t even have to be completely limited entry. Make your mule deer general season your October dates. Make a limited entry tag good for November. The catch is if you put in for the November tag whether you draw or not you are not allowed to hunt the general season. Gives people the chance to hunt the rut like Montanans love if they choose to put in for the limited entry and eliminates alot of hunters from the October season that don’t draw saving even more bucks. Would also sell more bonus points for hunters and would cut down on the pile of points some have.

 

[BuzzH]

Don’t disagree but I just don’t see this moving the needle for mule deer. You might have a few more bucks get older but you are still going to kill a ton of younger deer.

Only way in my opinion you move the needle for mule deer is to move it to some sort of limited entry. Wouldn’t even have to be completely limited entry. Make your mule deer general season your October dates. Make a limited entry tag good for November. The catch is if you put in for the November tag whether you draw or not you are not allowed to hunt the general season. Gives people the chance to hunt the rut like Montanans love if they choose to put in for the limited entry and eliminates alot of hunters from the October season that don’t draw saving even more bucks. Would also sell more bonus points for hunters and would cut down on the pile of points some have.

I think we should all hold off predicting things if this new 3.0 were to pass.

I think we all may be surprised how this is over-all a positive thing. Harvest on any season is always going to be skewed to younger age class animals, even in limited entry hunts.

That said, your idea in your second paragraph isn't the worst idea I've heard.

Finally, taking the first step is often the most difficult, there will undoubtedly have to be changes made to address some other issues that may arise. But, what isn't up for debate is the current season structure isn't going to work much longer.

I also believe that with any plan or new idea, we shouldn't let perfection be the enemy of the good.

 

[antlerradar]

Yet FWP makes a lot of their decisions on landowner tolerance now. Seems like looking at what this season structure will do for that would be important.

FWP uses landowner tolerance when it fits the management FWP wants.

 

[brockel]

FWP uses landowner tolerance when it fits the management FWP wants.

You think a general October season that doesn’t have lots of older age class bucks being killed is the management FWP wants?

 

[antlerradar]

Sorry. I should have said.

"Your facillitators wont allow it"

It is not going to get added because it would be putting residents last.
In the pronghorn unit I live in there are at most 500 NR spread out over an area bigger than some states. Many of them will not even have a deer tag. On the other hand there will be at least 4500 resident hunters that will not be able to hunt south of the Yellowstone in region 7. For many of those residents it is the unit where they live. I would predict that a pronghorn tag in region 7 would once again be able to be picked up as a left over tag. Many of those left over tags would be sold to NRs.

 

[antlerradar]

You think a general October season that doesn’t have lots of older age class bucks being killed is the management FWP wants?

Not in the least, but if FWP was giving a lot of weight to what landowners want, an October season is what we would have. Same with no public land doe tags in 6&7. Many landowners are all for that, but sure was not a priority for FWP.

 

[antlerradar]

Ill just summarize my thoughts - and leave the rest to the HT community that loves this proposal.


2. Opening mule deer hunting up 4 weeks earlier than elk hunting WILL lead to a reduction in elk hunting quality.

Where are you getting the four weeks, it is less than two and a half.
Since most NR have combo licenses, Residents will be getting a two week head start on mule deer hunting before most NR even show up.