Montana General Season Structure Proposal 3.0

[Forkyfinder]

I will say there is much more overlap of my elk and mule deer hunting areas than there is my deer and antelope areas.

Its entirely unit/region specific. I would morning/evening hunt for MD and day rifle hunt for antelope in a lot of the state.

The mule deer do cohabit a lot the same space (especially when considering publicly accessible) - exactly why im saying the elk will get bumped to private even sooner by means of an earlier archery season and a month of gunshots they wont die from.

 

[bigsky2]

The other ones been called that here repeatedly and other things that lack respect. At least my nicknames patently true.

Would you prefer the mark taylor group proposal?

It’s easy to call the other proposal that when you only know of a couple of individuals that were involved in creating it and they happen to be past BHA and MWF board members. Maybe there are no current board members that were involved, they haven’t released anything publicly so we don’t know. All the info is out there on who helped to craft our proposal. Call it the MTCSO proposal if you need to give it a name.

 

[Forkyfinder]

It’s easy to call the other proposal that when you only know of a couple of individuals that were involved in creating it and they happen to be past BHA and MWF board members. Maybe there are no current board members that were involved, they haven’t released anything publicly so we don’t know. All the info is out there on who helped to craft our proposal. Call it the MTCSO proposal if you need to give it a name.

Okay. MTCSO proposal it is.

 

[Forkyfinder]

I’ll answer your questions.

1. Is incidental harvest ( in the context of how many mule deer are killed opportunisticly by antelope hunters as contrasted to how manly mule deer are killed opportunistically by elk hunters) a concern? Simple answer- no. When the entire state is considered, my prediction is that the overall numbers of mule deer harvested will decline. In regions that have mule deer/antelope overlap, a significant portion of antelope hunters may potentially harvest a mule deer during their antelope hunt or accompany other antelope tag holders to hunt deer while they hunt antelope. Since deer hunters will have to choose their deer season when they buy their tag and results of the antelope draw comes out in August, anyone holding both a deer and an antelope tag are going to be killing a mule deer and an antelope relative to their effort and ability regardless of whether both are killed in October or the deer is killed in November. My prediction is less or the same amount of mule deer killed overall in regions where mule deer/ antelope overlap.

2. How will you stop people from hunting both seasons? You won’t. There’s no reason to stop people from hunting both seasons at this point. If mule deer harvest increases beyond the current percentage of the population being killed with the current season structure that can be adjusted.

3. Why are we ruining elk hunting by opening it earlier? I assume you’re talking about the early season private land antlerless hunt? You make a bold statement by saying we’re ruining elk hunting. I’ll make an equally bold statement by saying we’re going to make elk hunting better by giving people interested in filling their freezer with delicious elk meat the opportunity to shoot a cow and not be in the elk woods competing with other hunters on public land during the general hunt. Plus, the early harvest pressure has potential in some areas to move elk from private land to more accessible land for bull elk hunt during the general season. ( This will not be universal statewide and will be dependent on a lot of factors related to security cover patterns of local elk movement, etc..

4. What is going to become of elk hunting after people have been hunting deer for four weeks in regions not 6 and 7? Trying to predict that with specificity is not possible but if I had to guess there’s not going be a drastically observable impact. Contextually, if you look at current season structure elk have been specifically targeted for six weeks prior to general season by archers and there is only a week long break between the pressure.
With our proposal there will potentially be some effects of elk moving away from access points but after six weeks of archery that’s pretty well established already. In my experience there’s a big difference between direct pressure of animals being stalked and shot at and indirect pressure of more road traffic and hunters in the woods. Indirect pressure isn’t without effect, but elk don’t just leave the country when there’s indirect pressure.


I’m looking forward to hearing your answers to @Antlerradar’s questions about LE.

These arent real answers, gerald

1. You are completly ignoring the lack of other opportunities that exist when antelope are out. Nothing - besided fall black bear is currently open when speedgoat season opener is. It will change how people hunt period.

2. People can then hunt MD for 4 weeks and then white tail for 4 weeks? How you funding the bloating BMA expense?

3. The reason that the oct private land only season exists is why rifle hunting is going to be much worse. Its written all over HT that non consumptive (we need a better name?) users like hikers/bikers bump elk and disturb them all the time. Rifle hunters targetting mule deer will do so - much faster than archery which will also be doing it earlier.

4. A week long gap (of no rifles/hunters) is significantly different than no gap of gunshots.

 

[Rack Daniels]

You make a bold statement by saying we’re ruining elk hunting.

They will be gone. Idc if someone’s shooting at a coyote, fox or a trout in the river! There’s a good reason there is NO recreation in the wilderness study area during wintering months. To reduce disturbance to the wildlife! They KNOW that even non consumptive recreation is still likely to move the elk from their wintering grounds. Why wouldn’t mule deer hunting move them from wherever they are??? It’s a dumb argument. It’ll ruin elk hunting.

 

[antlerradar]

Precisely why if i was outfitting on private land - especially in the western part of state, but also true east - id be overjoyed to hear that public deer hunters will be pushing wildlife cash cows (ELK) on to private. Not just earlier in archery - but safe from harvest with the pressure on mule deer for a whole month when the rifles are going.

Its disappointing how much hand waving has been done about "mule deer" - the MCS proposal changes as much or more about elk. Wonder why? Why did the article mention special interests? Hmmm.

I think you will be pleasantly surprised at how little mule deer hunting is going to happen the first 2 1/2 weeks in western Montana. I am betting that there will be a substantial decrease from the current archery numbers.

 

[antlerradar]

Maybe you never understood all along

Have you really not considered how much more senstive to pressure (direct and indirect) elk are too mule deer? Thats the only logical reason for a "cow only" october season. Someone in the group realized public land elk were headed to private land in the october mule deer season, or it wouldnt have been added.

In 5 seconds, im sure someone will say "wyoming has that for 2 weeks" without any regard for the obvious differences in public land /private land geography in the two states.

I was pushing that. Some of us landowners would really like to bust the cow herds off the hay field as early as possible. In 1.0 the elk opener was Nov first and that was just too late.

 

[Forkyfinder]

I think you will be pleasantly surprised at how little mule deer hunting is going to happen the first 2 1/2 weeks in western Montana. I am betting that there will be a substantial decrease from the current archery numbers.

Why? If its lack of interest (cause every other states going to be open) - wheres the concern for unsold tags?

 

[Forkyfinder]

I was pushing that. Some of us landowners would really like to bust the cow herds off the hay field as early as possible. In 1.0 the elk opener was Nov first and that was just too late.

Gotcha. What is it now?

Other than additional elk being on private from season changes - whats that got to do with mule deer?

 

[BuzzH]

Its entirely unit/region specific. I would morning/evening hunt for MD and day rifle hunt for antelope in a lot of the state.

The mule deer do cohabit a lot the same space (especially when considering publicly accessible) - exactly why im saying the elk will get bumped to private even sooner by means of an earlier archery season and a month of gunshots they wont die from.

I disagree, a vast majority of pronghorn are killed the first few days of the season in Montana, Wyoming, etc. There might be a bit of overlap but very little.

As to deer hunters pressuring elk, that's all crap too. Wyoming rifle deer seasons in many areas are right before rifle elk. Doesn't seem to push elk off public at all. In fact, elk are a pain in the ass during our deer seasons, cant get away from them. I get tired of glassing wayyyy more elk than deer.

The reason elk hunting sucks in Montana is because of the season lengths and the timing of those long seasons. Another factor is being able to rifle hunt both elk and deer at the same time.

 

[Forkyfinder]

I disagree, a vast majority of pronghorn are killed the first few days of the season in Montana, Wyoming, etc. There might be a bit of overlap but very little.

As to deer hunters pressuring elk, that's all crap too. Wyoming rifle deer seasons in many areas are right before rifle elk. Doesn't seem to push elk off public at all. In fact, elk are a pain in the ass during our deer seasons, cant get away from them. I get tired of glassing wayyyy more elk than deer.

The reason elk hunting sucks in Montana is because of the season lengths and the timing of those long seasons. Another factor is being able to rifle hunt both elk and deer at the same time.

You have both been in both places enough to understand theres a lot different geography and land ownership that are going to effect that.

I knew that this would be the response, and posted a prediction of it earlier.

Edit: in addition to that - no where in wyoming is the season open on deer for a month and then elk after.

 

[El Jason]

The reason elk hunting sucks in Montana is because of the season lengths and the timing of those long seasons. Another factor is being able to rifle hunt both elk and deer at the same time.

Bears repeating…

 

[Forkyfinder]

The reason elk hunting sucks in Montana is because of the season lengths.

all in for making em longer, right?

 

[BuzzH]

all in for making em longer, right?

Feel free to ignore the timing and ability to hammer both elk and deer for 7 weeks.

Season length alone isnt necessarily a problem. Wyoming has elk seasons that run August 15 through January 31 for rifle...and our elk hunting buries Montana for quality, success rates, etc.

 

[Straight Arrow]

We have elk seasons that run August 15 through January 31 for rifle.

Aug 15 thru Feb 15 "shoulder" seasons in Montana.

 

[BuzzH]

Aug 15 thru Feb 15 "shoulder" seasons in Montana.

Which is fine for reducing over objective elk if you're killing the right elk.

What Wyoming doesn't have is general elk seasons that run 12 weeks when bull elk are the most vulnerable (rut and ass deep snow).

 

[Forkyfinder]

I disagree, a vast majority of pronghorn are killed the first few days of the season in Montana, Wyoming, etc. There might be a bit of overlap but very little.

When is pronghorn opener in Wy? What else can you shoot (with a rifle) during that time?

 

[BuzzH]

When is pronghorn opener in Wy? What else can you shoot (with a rifle) during that time?

Depends on the pronghorn rifle season dates. Wyoming, unlike Montana, has varying season openers, lengths, staggered openers depending on license type, etc. to accommodate hunt quality, population objectives, etc

Its called management, a word Montana forgot about, and stopped caring about, sometime in the late 1950's.

 

[El Jason]

I think it’s worth repeating, thank you to the folks who took the time and effort to put pen to paper. Their plan will not satisfy everyone. Nothing will. People are selfish.

But, there are some very conservation minded folks in this group who have out a lot of thought into the consequences, both intended and unintended, of their proposal.

It’s much more difficult to work towards a collaborative goal than just argue to be right.

Cheers to you folks.

 

[Forkyfinder]

Depends on the pronghorn rifle season dates. Wyoming, unlike Montana, has varying season openers, lengths, staggered openers depending on license type, etc. to accommodate hunt quality, population objectives, etc

Its called management, a word Montana forgot about, and stopped caring about, sometime in the late 1950's.

Until theres an emphasis on more unit/region specific regs here its all going to be a problem. Montanas a very diverse state where a single solution wont work effectively and increasingly less so each year.

I agree.