MOGA - FWP "public" meeting?

[Nemont]

Eric,

I hope anything I posted is not viewed as an attack on you. I wish more guys were as giving as you and your family are in regards to what you donate to local events and it is greatly appreciated. I do have a hang up with MOGA and it started back with Jean Johnson so maybe it is just a case of hard feelings on my part. I am not anti outfitter and if it comes down to protecting private property rights I will be right there with you.


Having said that, MOGA and the FWP had to know that such a meeting, even with the best of intentions would rub everyone, not at the table, wrong. Especially looking at the calendar and knowing gray bills are being drafted now and sponors are being lined up for the January start of the Legislature.

Whether APF does or does not allow hunting that remains to be seen but I have lost access to more land from the Carrol Brothers and Mike Kinney than I have so far to the APF. I don't like APF any more than anyone else in Phillips or Valley County but they are here to stay.

Hell, I would have loved to hear the Dept.'s side of the story but they don't really care about explaining it to an average Joe hunter, I wonder why that it is? Seems like a strange way for a public agency to act.

Jeff Cole aka Nemont

 

[Straight Arrow]

"run about "willy-nilly" with nobody responsible for them" Really, Eric?

Obviously you are not well informed regarding discussions, guidelines, concerns, issues, and proposed resolutions concerning the bison relocation program thus far ... and it's far from being fully vetted. Your rhetoric smacks of rumor and paranoia, not of a well-informed rancher/landowner. It makes me wonder where you go to get reliable information. UPOM, MOGA, SFW, or the Stockman Bar?

 

[Eric Albus]

the stockman is my favorite...but this comes from the meeting i attended in Miles City...seems that there are a bunch of us paranoid..ill-informed, suspicious(which you forgot to mention) rancher types out there....

 

[Straight Arrow]

Stockman for me too, but second only to Jersey Lilly.

It's good you were at the Miles City meeting. FWP does need to hear the concerns, even if they are far-fetched. But with the right to express paranoid and suspicious concerns comes the responsibility to acknowledge when FWP does counter the concerns with information and actions.

The problem I have seen with those hearings/meetings is that many hunters, outfitters, ranchers and others attend only to complain, point fingers, and tell FWP where the bear s..ts in the buckwheat. There's not nearly enough listening and learning going on. Then when FWP does not do exactly what is suggested the agency is accused of not listening.

There are so many times I have attended and later heard reactions to FWP's information and actions that were totally contrary to my reaction and conclusions from the same information.

 

[howler]

Eric, just to be clear If I run into a cow on the highway you are not reponcible according to the Taylor Grazing Act. I did that nov 17 1971 Mogans were minus a black cow..

 

[Lawnboy]

The Department top brass and the Commission have a terrible relationship. There is little or no communication between the two branches. The most knowledgeable biologists and regional big game managers are not allowed to be at Commission meetings to provide answers to very important questions the Commissioners might have. Yet, those big game managers are the ones out in the public meetings taking all the public input.

The Commission makes final decisions on a many things, but the Department has difficulting communucating with the Commission. Regardless of the personal dynamics, for the Department to function, that communciation needs to occur. Break down in that process is fertile grounds for the dysfunction so many accuse the Department of in the last few years.

.

Too me this is the biggest problem we have. It seems the Commission has way to much control and aren't using the "proffesionals" to help make biological decisions. They need to be shown the door.

 

[sweetnectar]

Howler, that is not always the case. Negligence is negligence. It used to be that if someone broke into your home and injured themselves by tripping on toy left on the stairs they could not sue you and win. Now they can sue and win because you are "negligent" for leaving they toy on the stairs. You have to love how screwed up things have become.

 

[sweetnectar]

Now as far as this whole fwp meeting and buzz's I hate landowners attitude or outfitters or whatever and Eric's landowner views and peoples hurt feeling and suspicions...it is enough to make my head spin. So here is what I'm getting from this whole thing.
A barrage of bills came in the last legislative session. This was a bunch of opinions in action. MWF goes to lots of public hearing and gives their opinions. MOGA meets with FWP in private to give their opinions. A bunch of guys that use this website seem to be a bit huffy because they seem to not want FWP to listen to MOGA's opinions because their opinion should be heard and they don't know what opinions MOGA is talking about. Now because peoples opinions are different there is lots animosity toward one another. So to sum my opinion of this thread up in two words: Jerry Springer.

 

[BuzzH]

If its too complicated for you...move along.

 

[shoots-straight]

Now as far as this whole fwp meeting and buzz's I hate landowners attitude or outfitters or whatever and Eric's landowner views and peoples hurt feeling and suspicions...it is enough to make my head spin. So here is what I'm getting from this whole thing.
A barrage of bills came in the last legislative session. This was a bunch of opinions in action. MWF goes to lots of public hearing and gives their opinions. MOGA meets with FWP in private to give their opinions. A bunch of guys that use this website seem to be a bit huffy because they seem to not want FWP to listen to MOGA's opinions because their opinion should be heard and they don't know what opinions MOGA is talking about. Now because peoples opinions are different there is lots animosity toward one another. So to sum my opinion of this thread up in two words: Jerry Springer.

There's a thing called "Due Process" in Government. Look it up!

 

[Straight Arrow]

Even with all the diverse perspectives and opinions seeminly expressing animosity, I think all parties are okay with anyone meeting with FWP ... just as long as the due process is open and transparent.

It's impossible to point out the fallacies of a potential "bad idea" if the proposal is expressed in secret.

 

[Eric Albus]

nicely said, sweet....loved the "jerry springer"...made me laugh...something I do not do a lot of these days.....and you are correct about the negligence...New Rule about beef on the road/hi-way...passed a few years ago...If someone is found negligent (not keeping fence up, ect.) they are responsible for damages done to you and your property...
you are also correct about the legislation..this past session was the first time in years MOGA went forward w/ any new bills....this was part of the deal w/ the OSL...when we got that we made a deal to not go forward w/ new legislation....we were also go go backward in outfitter numbers and leased acres...which we also were doing, from approx 550 outfitters to approx 450, and from approx. 8.4 million acres leased to approx. 6.3 M acres leased (which, as I predicted, has gone up since 161 passed)

thanks for the kind words once again, Jeff...i understand the angst w/ MOGA.....but just like the Dept. we are working on fixing the image....I also do not have anything against APF, I just know that sooner or later they will no longer allow hunting...but that is their choice..they bought the land and can do with it as they please. Does not mean I like it, it's just how it is.

arrow, the problem w/ the meetings w/ the dept. is due to their track record of not listening. This was the resounding theme at the Miles City meeting. Which is why most of the folks here in the eastern part of the state were mad before the meetings started. Personally I do not think it matters much about the bison...I do not fear change as much as other folks do...and I will give the Dept. credit and say they would probably take care of said shaggies in a good manner.

 

[Straight Arrow]

"arrow, the problem w/ the meetings w/ the dept. is due to their track record of not listening"

I understand what you're saying, but it makes my point. Those in one region fail to realize that prevalent contrary views may be expressed by others at meetings in the other regions. FWP has the difficult task of responding to views statewide, not just east or west.

After hearing all the griping about FWP "not listening" during the extensive vetting process across the state regarding limited permits for archery elk (the first one), I requested and received the summary document from FWP. The views were obviously all over the board, but some clear prevalent views were evident. FWP also just had to make some tough decisions ... knowing they would hear, "You're not listening" from some.

 

[shoots-straight]

you are also correct about the legislation..this past session was the first time in years MOGA went forward w/ any new bills....this was part of the deal w/ the OSL...when we got that we made a deal to not go forward w/ new legislation....we were also go go backward in outfitter numbers and leased acres...which we also were doing, from approx 550 outfitters to approx 450, and from approx. 8.4 million acres leased to approx. 6.3 M acres leased (which, as I predicted, has gone up since 161 passed)

I wonder if you have the numbers for licensed guides in that same time frame you spoke of?

Also, many landowner/outfitters are now in business, those lands aren't reported as leased.

There are also many landowner/guides working under a outfitter that's lands aren't reported as leased.

Do you want to elaborate on why I-161 was a "Complete Failure"?

 

[PublicLandHunter]

We need to start a mass letter writng campaign to the Governor with CC to Maurier . Secret meetngs with any group are illegal, and this one is partecularly egregious for Montana sportsmen.

The Governor's address is State Capitol Rm 204, Helena , MT 59620-0801.

Director Maurier , 1420 E. 6th Ave., Helena , MT 59620

 

[howler]

will do

 

[ingomar]

For those of you who would rather email the Governor, Director Maurier and Dave Risley, below are pasted their email comment addresses off their respective websites:

http://governor.mt.gov/contact/commentsform.asp this is for the Governor

http://fwp.mt.gov/doingBusiness/contactUs/staff/contactForm.html?id=038872 the Director, Joe Maurier

http://fwp.mt.gov/doingBusiness/contactUs/staff/contactForm.html?id=049044 Dave Risley, FWP Administrator

While it is good to have this dialogue on this website, if you are truly interested in affecting change, we must be voicing our concerns to those in power. The same goes for the election and next legislative session. It will take a concerted effort by lots of Montana sportsmen to defeat the bad bills we are likely to see and pass the good bills that we will be trying to move forward.

On another note, does anyone know if either the Director or Dave Risley have had any meetings with SFW and where either one of them stands on SFW? Would be very interested to know if they support the North American Model of Wildlife Management and the Public Trust doctrine. Past statements from the Director, who came from Colorado where they have a large Ranching For Wildlife Program, have not been conclusive on his support for the Model or Public Trust.

 

[Pierre]

I do disagree with Big Fin that Moga did a good job in setting up this meeting. Getting what you want at any cost is what MOGA is paying for in image right now. We have watched them try to bowl over resident sportsmen for some time. We have listened to false and misleading testimony and op-eds. That is an image they have to live with and they built it purposely. You don't knife someone in the back and then tell them you'd like to work together.
Let me connect some dots. MOGA=SFW=Maurier and Risley. There needs to be a house cleaning....a big one. You wonder when public land outfitters are going to stand up to the folks wanting to tweak the Model and Public Trust for their personal gain??

 

[muleguy]

I have to ask where is MWF on this issue-the single sportsman needs a leader to unite the sportsman in the state?

 

[howler]

You wonder when public land outfitters are going to stand up to the folks wanting to tweak the Model and Public Trust for their personal gain??

I agree you wouild think there would be a group of outfitters wanting to see a separation of the 2 different types of outfitters in Montana. the back country or public lands outfitters do have a lot of support in Mt,