Militia takes over wildlife refuge headquarters
- Thread starter Oak
- Start date
Actions have consequences! Not sure what the deceased thought was gonna happen when he reached inside his coat twice.
On another vein, in the after action review those were some sloppy LEO tactics (speaking from a position of ignorance - no LEO or military training). What the hell was the fella thinking who ran toward the front of the truck and almost got run over? The shooter shot right at the other officers on the road. When emptying the truck, looks like LEO's on all sides pointing guns at the truck and their fellow officers on the other side. Maybe its just the view from the plane that distorts the actual angles.
On another vein, in the after action review those were some sloppy LEO tactics (speaking from a position of ignorance - no LEO or military training). What the hell was the fella thinking who ran toward the front of the truck and almost got run over? The shooter shot right at the other officers on the road. When emptying the truck, looks like LEO's on all sides pointing guns at the truck and their fellow officers on the other side. Maybe its just the view from the plane that distorts the actual angles.
whiskeydog
Active member
Very misguided. If this were Kandahar every person in that vehicle would have been killed. In Kandahar, you don't get the opportunity to try running through a roadblock...instead you get 50 cal and 5.56 rounds through your windshield and engine block. Not only would Marines NOT be court martialed here, they would have been commended for standing their ground. Finicum has his hands up for about a second before reaching inside his jacket several times. No doubt the agents were yelling at him to get down as well. Would you have preferred having to explain to the agents wives why one of them got shot instead? I have no patience for arm chair QBs...
By the way, I spent 6 years as an artillery officer in the Marine Corps...what did you do?
D
Deleted member 20812
Guest
From an aerial perspective, I'd agree with you. However, things may have appeared quite differently from ground level.
Edit: I watched the video again, and the guys on the road would have been at a lower trajectory. The closest two were in a crossfire that Finnicum may have intentionally created.
I'm kind of amazed they didn't fire at the pickup as it was bearing down on the roadblock. They would have been entirely justified in shooting the driver right then. My guess is the guy who almost got hit thought Finnicum was going to ram the vehicle he was standing behind.
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Dinkshooter
Well-known member
If he would have kept his hands in the air he would be alive.
From what I have read the LEO's used flash bangs on the people still in the truck after the shooting.
So if as the Bundy supporters are saying this was an execution, why would the LEO's use lethal force on one and non lethal on the rest of the crew? Makes no sense. If it was a set up execution like the Brady Bunch is claiming they would all be dead.
So if as the Bundy supporters are saying this was an execution, why would the LEO's use lethal force on one and non lethal on the rest of the crew? Makes no sense. If it was a set up execution like the Brady Bunch is claiming they would all be dead.
Straight Arrow
Well-known member
He did not; he is not.
Just watched the whole video that was released on PBS this morning.It is the cleanest video I could find with my limited wifi.
It looks to me as a former LEO that it was a textbook clean shoot & procedure.
Bundy was probably shot when he moved his hands off the dashboard, again textbook procedure.
It looks to me as a former LEO that it was a textbook clean shoot & procedure.
Bundy was probably shot when he moved his hands off the dashboard, again textbook procedure.
utah400elk
Well-known member
This is just my opinion...
The LE who was almost hit: I have almost 20 years in law enforcement and what I saw was the guy trying desperately to get away from the car he was behind. It looked like the truck was going to ram the car and he was running for his life. He had started towards the snow bank before the truck swerved. Since his actions (running) had already started, there was no time for his brain to process the shift that the truck had swerved. It does not look like the guy in the truck tried to hit the officer, it looks like he tried to go around the road block. The officer that ran looked like he was trying to get away from the vehicle he was behind because he thought the truck was going to ram the car.
As to the tactics...
The initial set up was pretty good. When the guy ran back at the cops he caused the cross fire. The also look like they were set up for the truck to stop before the road block. Once the truck went past the back of their cars their positions were not great. They were adapting to a rapidly evolving situation.
As LE we are always trained to avoid a cross fire situation. The truck passing the containment line and then driver running back at the cops while reaching for his waist forced the police to react to his actions. The officer was in a bad spot, shot in a crossfire or allow the guy to get whatever he was reching for.
The other thing to consider us the terrain. It looks like a crossfire to me but the terrain could mitigate the crossfire danger to some extent.
Again, just my opinion.
The LE who was almost hit: I have almost 20 years in law enforcement and what I saw was the guy trying desperately to get away from the car he was behind. It looked like the truck was going to ram the car and he was running for his life. He had started towards the snow bank before the truck swerved. Since his actions (running) had already started, there was no time for his brain to process the shift that the truck had swerved. It does not look like the guy in the truck tried to hit the officer, it looks like he tried to go around the road block. The officer that ran looked like he was trying to get away from the vehicle he was behind because he thought the truck was going to ram the car.
As to the tactics...
The initial set up was pretty good. When the guy ran back at the cops he caused the cross fire. The also look like they were set up for the truck to stop before the road block. Once the truck went past the back of their cars their positions were not great. They were adapting to a rapidly evolving situation.
As LE we are always trained to avoid a cross fire situation. The truck passing the containment line and then driver running back at the cops while reaching for his waist forced the police to react to his actions. The officer was in a bad spot, shot in a crossfire or allow the guy to get whatever he was reching for.
The other thing to consider us the terrain. It looks like a crossfire to me but the terrain could mitigate the crossfire danger to some extent.
Again, just my opinion.
D
Deleted member 20812
Guest
Another thing to consider that we can't see from the aerial view is that one of the two cops that shot only have to crouch down a little bit to markedly change the trajectory of their shot at that range.
You'll also notice the two cops on the ground immediately moving to get out of the crossfire.
Ditto Utah!
The trooper that shot him with the rifle was in the best position on target...like it or not.
If it was a free for all he would have been second one down in the cross fire.
From this video the OR troopers should be making scene safety policy videos. The arrest of the next exiters from vehicle is also textbook. No one was touched until they were clear out of sight of the truck they left and behind a LEO vehicle.
The rest of it with the LEO almost being hit was again textbook procedure,get out form behind the vehicle as safety deems it prudent.
The trooper that shot him with the rifle was in the best position on target...like it or not.
If it was a free for all he would have been second one down in the cross fire.
From this video the OR troopers should be making scene safety policy videos. The arrest of the next exiters from vehicle is also textbook. No one was touched until they were clear out of sight of the truck they left and behind a LEO vehicle.
The rest of it with the LEO almost being hit was again textbook procedure,get out form behind the vehicle as safety deems it prudent.
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JohnCushman
Well-known member
They used the flashbangs to disorient the occupants of the truck incase someone decided to get out shooting. It's a beautiful, non-lethal tactic. We even did it in the military before we breeched a building.
The Hedgehog
Well-known member
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More proof that Darwin was right..
Pretty much sums it up.
utah400elk
Well-known member
I really feel for the trooper. I am sure the anti gov people will label him an assassin and he will be hounded for the rest of his career. His split second decisions will be second guessed by every Tom, Dick and Harry from now until eternity. The ass-hat driver forced the troopers hand and now the trooper will have this hang over him.
I am thankful no LE were injured in the incident and hope this does not ruin his career.
I am thankful no LE were injured in the incident and hope this does not ruin his career.
JohnCushman
Well-known member
What worries me is a situation like the Michael Brown shooting where the officer ended up resigning due to constant harassing and threats to his family and whatnot. His hand was forced and it was a 'good' shooting, but he will forever end up being a whipping post to America and the militia sympathizers. It's a shame, really, and I hope the body cam and dash cam footage shows it was justified.
The Oregonian slowed down and zoomed the Finicum video if anyone is inclined to take another look.
The Hedgehog
Well-known member
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Suicide by cop.
MinnesotaHunter
Well-known member
Martyrdom buy cop......Everybody loses.
Really, there was probably no good options for resolution after letting the occupation last longer than a couple of hours.
Really, there was probably no good options for resolution after letting the occupation last longer than a couple of hours.
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